Disclaimer: Please do not make rude or inflammatory post. I want this to stay on topic and want this to be on topic. If you don't have anything to say other than to provoke people, DO NOT post in this thread. My last thread was locked because of this. I do not want flaming, baiting or anything inflammatory and DO stay on topic please.

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So my thread was locked down because people got off topic, was about why the shrines offer blessings to people who have done clear evil or wrong? This thread should explore the morals and the philosophies and the ethics of these gods. As well as discuss the infamy system and how to bring back some character depth in forming how the game addresses you.

My points I have made in my last thread:

But at the same time there are some clearcut boundaries between right and wrong. So there are no moral implications other than the faulty system of guards, mercenaries, and asassins? There is a difference between boundaries.

I liked the message because my character Lucil is a dark brotherhood member, that's actively a choice of murder. And I am playing him as wanting to repent from his sins. And the kind of system Oblivion had would make that all the more real. As the daunting realization of all that you have done. That even the gods won't forgive you for what you have done.

There are moral and ethical boundaries that just cannot be ignored. Now there feels to be no consequences to bad deeds you have done.

I think Oblivion did it the best, imo. It was a system they could updated not taken from. Yes, Oblivion had its flaws, but I feel like every time something has flaws gamesas tears down the house to rebuild a new house. Instead of taking the features of the other games that were good and learning how to update them and taking what was negative. I think Oblivion updated the house and I think Skyrim completely uprooted the house. I liked some of the character depth that was crafted into Oblivion that I wish was still in Skyrim. One of the features that I miss a great deal is the journal. As if your character takes a quill and eloquantly writes his adventures. I now think my Oblivion character journal is somewhere and told to many and spread as stories. You won't get that from Skyrim's journal. I feel the menu system is very immersive broken. I liked Oblivions take of paper log, Skyrims feels like something you see on a tablet, it feels "futurish" if that makes sense.

I wouldn't call this dumbing down, simply stating the features I miss. I like in depth systems that can be updated to appeal to everyone.

I know what people say. It was made by a different company, but Fallout New Vegas I think had a rather decent infamy system. I like how you have different standings in each faction, where as bandits may villify you people may see you as someone famous. I don't think the moral system should have been taken out, I don't think the infamy system should have been removed. I think what should have been done was update the old system of infamy. Imo, their should be minor consequences to the way you have chosen to play. To give every character this freedom and allowance, the world feels...less complex. When I say less complex I don't mean it as in the game is dumbed down. I mean it doesn't give the world life and vibrancy, a deep moral system and in depth view of how the world views you.

Hopefully this thread stays on topic for you. Now I can't remember. If you were part of the dark brotherhood and such you could not get blessings at the alters? The more I think about it the more I can't remember. I do remember being unable to wear the knights of the nine armor if I killed anyone.. Now I'm going to have to pop oblivion in.

In Oblivion you cannot pray at shrines if you are in the Dark Brotherhood.

Yeah, searched that after I posted. It's too bad they removed that.

Really? I don't remember that. I was infected with vampirism once and I am pretty sure I prayed at an alter to remove it. Can't remember if it was before or after joining the Dark Brotherhood.

I agree with my brother there are boundaries and lines that shouldn't be crossed

-If you're a werewolf, afflicted with that kind of curse and putting your faith in Hircine himself, the Gods should not give you blessing

-Same with vampires

-Murders

There just needs to be moral or ethical boundaries to the gods or else why do people worship them? Gods take on the shape and form of their people. In Skyrim you have people revulsed, and afraid of vampires and werewolfs.

The city guard frowns upon murder and theft.

But these moral realms don't enter the gods defined by those world laws.

edit-

@Legion, I'm pretty damn sure.

Oblivion's Fame and Infamy system is one that should return in Skyrim, IMO. Completing certain quests, or completing a quest in a certain way would earn you fame points, while other quests/ ways of completing quests would earn you infamy points. Those with a high fame have a higher disposition with regular citizens, town guards, legion soldiers and other 'good' people. Those with a high infamy would have a lower disposition with 'good' NPCs, but I higher disposition with 'bad' NPCs.

Those in the Dark Brotherhood couldn't obtain blessings from shrines because of their high infamy. Certain quests - such as the Pale Pass quest - required a high fame. These little details were really excellent, and added a lot to the game. I feel they could achieve the same thing in Skyrim.

Agreed.

I don't know why it was removed. I actually like the house metaphor.

They saw one thing and then tore down the whole entire house.

Not exactly, you can, if your fame is higher than your infamy, I suppose it counts as atoning or something.

Well I had low infamy, so ahahhaa. I'm just criminal scum ya know.