I would love to be part of a serious discussion about the game since I already found a few things I would like to talk about, but I only completed 60% of the game and your spoiler warning keeps me off.

I'm really looking forward to reading (and discussing) this once I complete the game since it looks like you put a lot of effort into your spiel.

I'm a long time Lovecraft fan too. Thief1/2 were 2 of my favorite games too. I don't like console games neither (they dumb-down things too much). However, I do not agree with your review. Note, I have played only 60% so far. (I am on the ship now).The game works flawlessly for me. There have been a few buttons where I had to move around a little before I could push them. That's it. For the rest everything works. WinXP with SP1 and a few security patches. R9800Pro, AMD64-3400+ and an ASRock motherboard. Ati drivers 2 months old. Nothing special.I agree that it is not optimal that Jack stays sane during the whole game. However, what are the alternatives ? If we had to switch our character every 3 hours of gameplay, because the previous one went nuts, that would have had hampered immersion a lot. When ever I play a new game where I am a new person, it takes a while before I feel I am that person. It's almost like friendship, the more troubles you share with a friend, the stronger the friendship grows. Same in a game, the more adventures I survive with/as Jack, the closer I feel to Jack, and the more I feel I am Jack.Longer lasting sanity effects ? It might make the game unplayable. People like to keep control over their player character. Heard the complaints in Thief about mantling ? ("I want to mantle, I know it is possible, but the game won't let me !). In World of Warcraft the developers had to tone down all stun/fear/mesmerize effects. Because players rather take a beating while they can run around under their own control, then standing still, unable to move their character. If Jack's "desperate moments" would last 10 minutes, in stead of 10 seconds, people would just sit in a corner, go /afk for 10 minutes and return when they could play again. Would that help immersion, or break immersion ? Maybe if Jack would go into some kind of hallucination ? Like the hallucinations in the madhouse. Maybe create a small game-in-the-game where you had to do something inside your hallucination to break out of it.Anyway, my point is that introducing more insanity could break immersion. Or it would slow down gameplay, which could turn off a big chunck of the audience.Sneaking in Thief was the best. Fully agree. I hate sneaking in Morrowind. Sneaking in WoW is far too simplistic. But tbh, I kinda like the sneaking in DCotE. It is maybe a bit simplistic. But it works good enough. And the good thing in DCotE: sneaking is a lot less reliable than in Thief. In Thief, you could do crazy things. Sneak very closely behind people's backs. Use height differences (being 1/2 meter higher than the AI would make it harder for him to see you). Turn off lights and nobody would get suspicious. Etc. Lots of ways to get an advantage if you knew the details of sneaking in the engine. In DCotE there might be these details too, but they are less obvious. (Hiding behind a fishnet seemed a bit overpowered). In any case, when I sneak in DCotE, I don't feel secure. Like I felt secure in the Thief games. In DCotE, I wanna get around a corner, and out of sneak mode asap, because I am scared the AI sees me anyways. In Thief sneaking was a tool, and if you were good at using it, it would make you feel more secure. In DCotE, sneaking is a tool too, but one I like to use as little as possible, because it makes me feel *less* secure. I like that. This game made me feel uneasy more often than all other games combined.I agree that the inventory screen is crap. And like you said, they are all crap. If really tried, it could maybe be improved upon. But that would have required quite a bit of work, I think. (How to use items ? Present a bag, open it, and then you can click on things ? How do you read the diary fragments, the books, etc ? Take a paper out of the bag, and put it in front of your eyes ? No perfect solutions here. (And btw, reading papers in Thief worked very similar)). However, I think this issue is a minor detail. You play a game. Sometimes you have to adjust to the "make belief".Not being able to pickup guns is a gameplay issue. The developers want to take you through a certain experience. Part of that experience is the tools they give you during your adventure. You are gonna be limited. The solution would be that all your enemies would carry weapons of the same or lower quality as you already have. But you would have an unlimited amount of bullets. I play on a PC with a joystick (movement) and trackball (mouselook). I had mapped buttons from the key-config page to my joystick. But I had not realized the 1-9 keys are for weapons. Once I got a gun, for a long time I only used the pistol, because I couldn't switch to other weapons ! (I had the show/hide weapon button mapped, but not 1-9). So I had to be very careful using my bullets, because I thought I had only 1 gun with 1 set of bullets. I really liked that. The fact that this is not a simple "scary shooter" is a plus. (Compare to FarCry: scary settings, scary monsters, but you get the guns and ammo to blast through them. A totally different gameplay experience).I am only 60% through the game. But so far I really like it. I also bought Oblivion, but for some reason I am not attracted to it. Oblivion will probably be goty. But once I left the tutorial area, I really really wanted to go back and play DCotE.I like the graphics. The artwork is amazing. Thief3 was a big disappointment for many reasons. Controls for console, small maps for console, low res textures for console, etc. I feared DCotE would share the same faith. But not at all ! DCotE does not feel like a console game to me. Textures are good. I like the "twenties" feel. Lighting is superb. I really like the models. Even in games with new engines, like Oblivion, the models don't look so "alive", so "non blocky", so "gritty/ugly/disgusting" as in DCotE. Use of special effects, flashbacks, scared mode, rain, blood, being dizzy, etc is very nice. Many games excel in one or two areas of graphics, and fail in others. The difference between those break immersion more than anything else. (Example: Thief3 has nice lighting. but if the textures are low res, the overal result is still crap). In DCotE all areas of graphics seem at the same level, which helps immersion a lot.I'm not sure what I think of gameplay. Lots of stuff I like. I feel like playing in a movie. Or even better, playing in an adventure. Just what I prefer in a game. I've played shooters (Unreal Tournament, etc), so even though I am 41y old, I am not scared by the action/shoot/jump scenes. But some of them were not easy. I have friends who are Lovecraft fans. But I am not sure I can recommend them the game, because they might not be able to get through the hardest action oriented parts. I liked some of the puzzles. But some were too hard. (*spoiler*: In the Dagon temple, I realized I had to push buttons, and I realized the symbols were key, but no way in hell would I have been able to find the sequence without the walk-through). The vault puzzles are not always obvious either.I don't expect perfect games. None have been made yet. All in all, DCotE is a much better game than I expected. One of the best I ever played. Looking forward to playing the last 40% over the next few days.

SPOILERS IN THIS POSTMan, I love this game so much its hard to genuinely critique. I love it for how it makes me feel.Some elements of the design/implementation could perhaps have been done better or differently but I think the real important thing for me is the nature of the whole experience, rather than any one implementational detail.I guess my point is that each of the specific qualities of the game, its design and engineering were good enough to get my brain plugged into the experience of being Jack Walters. Some of these qualities were, of course, truly outstanding such as, IMHO, the sanity and environmental effects, the vast amount of dialogue and awesome sound effects and the character models.The main poor point was, I guess, the enemy AI didn't seem all that great. Although, to be honest, no worse than the vast majority of games. One thing that really made this stand out is the fact that during the early stages of the "Attack of the Fishmen" pursuit, the scripted nature of their movements makes them seem extremely capable opponents - but once that's over with, they can no longer climb ladders, can't duck under low ceilings and can't even reliably open unlocked doors at some points, let alone beat the doors down. They also seemed, from time to time, to be spectacularly poor marksmen.The main strong points were atmosphere and immersion - I guess maybe thats one point since you can't really have one without the other. I could rant on for hours about all the really evocative moments in the game, but I better not! Heres just two that spring to mind.The first time I happened to turn around while wandering the streets of Innmouth and come face to face with one of its intimidating citizens who'd been standing right behind me just staring at me... yeuch!... it is so rare for a game to actually be able to evoke in the player a sensation so specific as "revulsion" - but CoC does it.Wandering around deep under Devil's Reef, after having one-by-one killed off all the semi-human guards. Feeling a little confident of my safety, walking out in the open near Esther's garden on my way to resolve one of the object-related puzzles. Just then, Hydra does her first Deep One summoning bellow. That massive sound, welling up to an ungodly earth-shattering crecendo of fury from some unknown place far below, threw me into a panic. I've no idea whether Jack was in a programmatic panic state or not... but I sure as hell was. If there were keypress for "drop everything you're carrying and scream like a girl", I'dve been pressing it while I sprinted off to hide in the nearby hole-in-the-wall tunnel. So sure, games like FEAR or Doom-3 can occasionally make me jump with their jack-in-the-box style scares, but nothing has ever come close to the blinding terror that CoC can evoke.There are - obviously - many more moments in the game that, for me at least, conjure up incredibly lucid and intense atmospheres and sensations and I guess that really is my (rather rambling) point... that despite some arguably imperfect implementational elements, the game is fantastically immersive and more atmospherically evocative than just about anything else I've ever played.So anyway, my conclusion: the spectacular whole is greater than the sum of the occasionally flawed parts. IMHO this game is a total triumph and must be a somewhere around the high water mark for atmosphere in video games.Alli

Just another thing on the game. Gotta go, though...I distinguish between 'creepy', 'disturbing', 'horrific' and 'scary'.Creepy is generally something fairly disgusting or atmospheric. Silent Hill hits this, but so does Doom 3 in places.Scary is something that'll make you jump. This can be as corny as a cat jumping out of the cupboard or as effective as an IMP COMING THROUGH THE F?CKING STAIRS in Doom 3. Loved that bit.To get to 'disturbing' the experience has to reach into the psyche and challenge your or your character's deepest-held views of the world or self. The Silent Hill series makes this its USP - but only really succeeds with Silent Hill 2.Horror (horror that truely scars the mind...!)... I've always defined this (usually for movies) as the sense that the brakes don't work anymore. That anything can happen to you and your character. Normal morality is irrelevant and permanent damage is inevitable. It's more viceral than dread.Dark Corners is the only game I've played with a palatable sense of horror. The house is fantastic but the rising panic truely begins on arrival in Innsmouth. People staring at you. Bodies in cellars. A dark history. But best of all is the growing sense that you are surrounded by mad people.People whose moralities do not conform to any other sane group on the earth. They have the courage of their convictions, they're armed with machettes and they don't like you.And then you find you're stuck there for the night.Well done, Headfirst. It's an unbelievable achievement. --RoB

Wow, you have an impressive amount of thoughts on the game. I certainly have to give you that. But I can't help getting the impression that perhaps you were expecting uhm... too much from the game? Because right now it sounds to me like you were more or less waiting for a game that haven't even been made. By anyone.THE STRONGEST MIND IN THE UNIVERSEBoth of you guys take me up on the point of Jack's continued survival and persistent sanity in the face of Ultimate Horror. I'm not sure I agree with the argument that Jack had to continue because, well, the game would end if he didn't. Certainly I imagine that that's the most common argument but I honestly feel that it's something of a pedestrian excuse and seems out of place in a game which tries to be as innovative as this one.The Pen&Paper argument. I must admit that I'm at a loss here, having not played the game (GRR!) myself... but I've read the source book, many expansions and I've spoken to a number of players and Keepers. All speak of the ridiculous attrition rate within the game and in glowing terms. The game is famous for it. I've watched the game played and read accounts of it and if you don't die after meeting a Mythos creature then you're most likely to receive some debilitating form of long-term insanity - fear of beards, hallucinations, etc...Hmm... I see now that I sort of shot myself in the foot by bringing up the RPG. What I meant with "based on" was that Dark Corners draws a lot of its inspiration from the way CoC is played -not that its a PC-rendition of the RPG. Yes: it certainly has a rediculous attrition rate, and have acquired infamy for it too. And rightly so. That's part of the "kick" when playing the RPG -it's just sooo hopeless for the characters to try to prevail. But what makes that work in the end, despite the horrendous attrition rate, is the fact that it is a Pen&Paper roleplaying game. The characters are basically free to try whatever they want to try to survive the horrors -since it's a free, open world where they can roam freely and do whatever they feel they can do. A computer game (of the type that Dark Corners is) is naturally much more restricted. For quite understandable and obvious reasons.And (with the current design of Dark Corners and Jack as the sole character in mind) designing it to be fully comparable to the RPG when it comes to the sanity rules would have been utterly debilitating and nigh on impossible.And as it pertains to the Mythos creatures in the roleplaying game, the sanity losses vary greatly. 1d6 sanity loss for Deep Ones and 1d10 for Father dagon or Mother Hydra -which really isn't that big of a sanity loss. Sure, it could produce indefinity insanty which has to be cured by a lengthy stay in an insane asylum, but it might as well not cost the player any mentionable amount of sanity points at all. Now Flying Polyps and Shoggoths are, of course, another matter... But seeing as to how you made a pre-emptive strike and produced your version of what you would like the game to look like, I guess you already have the above arguments more or less covered. Regaining sanity for defeating creatures is a fine mechanic but in the end (as far as I could tell) Jack's meant to be something of a Joe Normalbloke. Everyman, that's the term. It beggars my belief that Joe Normalbloke could be persuaded back into the line of fire after a night that ends like the escape from Innsmouth.So are 99% of the player characters in CoC. The player's game ending because Jack is committed after 46% of the game? I agree - that'd be rubbish. But considering how Dark Corners is, as you rightly point out, based on the Pen & Paper RPG, let's see how they could have implemented the P&P mechanics into the game. In fact, let's develop the point I made in my previous post...DARK CORNERS OF THE EARTH: ROB'S CUTThose are some very well thought out and solid ideas you are presenting there. And as a story-based game, they might very well work. Personally though, when playing a game I prefer to stick with one character. Never did like those character switches in the Resident Evil games... It makes my experience of the game slightly disjointed and split. The game you are describing (and I get the impression that you were hoping for Dark Corners to be more along these lines all along) is a totally different game altogether than Dark Corners. Now I'm not saying that would be a bad thing, the idea is certainly solid enough. But I cannot help to think that that scenario perhaps would be better suited for the Pen&Paper game after all. The reason I think that is that so far none of the computer based RPG's I have played have even come close to the experiences offered by a genuine Pen&Paper RPG. Perhaps I'm not fully engulfing your ideas since I actually happened to like Dark Corners. Very much too. 'THAT' LINEUnfortunately... that line DOES exist in the game. Or I'm hallucinating. Try one of the first statues of Dagon you find after making landfall.Okay, I'll take your word for it and have a look around now that I'm playing the game for the second time. SURVIVAL HORROR? ...NO.As far as marketing dictating the direction the game took - and by that I take it you mean that the game needed to fit a general FPS mold (NOT A BAD THING BY ANY MEANS!) - and resorting to action to avoid marginalizing the target audience, I have to disagree entirely.Nope. I did not in any way mean that it "needed to fit a general FPS mold". What I meant was that if they would have created a game that would more or less play out like a Lovecraft short-story, they would have alienated a very large part of the gaming community (probably everyone except for the already initiated Lovecraft fans). And the game is in a very narrow niche as relatively obscure as it is. Dark Corners was sold as Survival Horror. Now, as a genre Survival Horror has been twisted to fit many a game - apparently The Suffering is a Survival Horror game (ehh? Surely 'Horror FPS'), apparently Manhunt is Survival Horror (Meh... more like Stealth Action). However, I would argue that the most common games associated with the genre are Resident Evil and Silent Hill, games that contain action elements but put the emphasis on puzzle-solving, hoarding, avoidance and exploration.I haven't played neither The Suffering nor Manhunt. In fact, I've only played one or two of the Silent Hill games and the Resident Evil games (aside from a handful of other console titles) and those are what I define as survival horror. So I can't really comment on the first to titles you mentioned. Despite being such a huge horror-fan very few titles on the market today attract me. Dark Corners was one of those that did, and in the end the game came through for me in way that I previously hadn't even imagined. And I definately define it as being survival horror.Exploration is, with the exception of the early wonderful moments of the game, limited to a linear track through much of the game. Very quickly the game returns to the standard FPS trope: The most effective way to interact with your environment is with your gun. Enemy numbers multiply and game tactics descent into a standard run&gun.Once again I'm left wondering: Did we play the same game? I never did any running and gunning. The closest I ever came to that was trying to escape a couple of hybrids while spraying them with my tommygun.THAT POINTLESS SNEAK MODEDark Corners, by contrast, continually leads the player by the hand from sequence to sequence with very little relief. The benefit is that you're rarely bored - the problem is that after a while it can all begin to seem the same. Thank christ for those amazing Headfirst set pieces...I had no problems with the pacing of the game. To me, it just felt like one long, continous decent into hell. The lack of "safe" areas actually hightened my suspence and the sense of relentless horror and impending doom.WE'LL AGREE TO DISAGREE ON THE RELOAD MECHANISM THENJust so. But if you look at any standard FPS on the market, you'll find that automatic reloading at the end of a magazine is the standard system. Usually the 'reload' mechanism (I always bind it to 'tab' meself, but I use a fairly non-standard keyboard setup =) ) is there to allow players to reload during a pause in the action.Well, I wasn't refering to standard FPS games as I hardly play any of those... I hate games where you automatically reload. Aside from this title now I've mostly played the Brothers in Arms series and Red Orchestra: Ostfront 41-45 during the course of the past year. And in those games you have to actively press a reload buttom to reload your weapon. So that feature being in Dark Corners delighted me to no end. Having to reload your weapon manually is a touch of realism that is sorely needed is this business.In fact: that very mechanism brought me some really memorable moments in the game. What immediately springs to mind is me running into a Depp One that lunges at me. I back away while I'm frantically discharging my gun at the abomination. To my great dismay the gun suddenly clicks as I've emptied my entire magazine at the thing. And yet, out of pure panic, I keep hitting the fire button, despreately trying to fire of rounds that aren't there.Allicorn ? My problem with Attack of the Fishmen was the INCREDIBLY ANNOYING DARK CORNERS SELECTION SYSTEM where I would centre my screen on a door bolt, hit action and unexpectedly open the door.Funny. I never had that problem...Turning around in Innsmouth to find an inhabitant staring at me. One of my FAVOURITE moments in the game ? so easy to program and such a brilliantly obvious idea and creepy too? I was so certain that this was going to be the best horror game ever.Oh, I agree! I was climbing down a fire escape in Old Town, jumped down to the ground, turned around... only to stare a revolting hybrid woman straight in the face. Those staring, unblinking eyes looking straight at me... Brrr....EDIT: What the HELL is wrong with the quoting function?! :angry:

The quotes are breaking down ^_^ I skimmed through to avoid being overly spoiled, but what I have noted is that sneaking is more arbitrary than Thief, and that reloading is not automatic.Thief sneaking was magical, it was not realistic in the slightest. Garrett could manage to hide in a slit of darkness between pillars in a room otherwise bathed in light. Most games simply use the crouch sneak mode with some sort of indicator. In Riddike EfBB, since there was no HUD, they identified sneak mode by making the screen tint to a blue hue. This is the best I've seen so far.Manual reloading is great for immersion IMO. If you want to be the character you're playing, if you want to assume the role completely physically, then having the player reload the gun is the preferred choice. The indication (clicking sound) is there. If Jack is an everyday man, which is what we all are, then I'm fine with him not doing what I wouldn't do automatically.This game is not the RPG, it is a FPP experience in the mythos. The mythos came before the pen&paper, so why would this game need to conform to anything involving the RPG?You guys really seem to be enjoying discussing the game, so obviously it left an impression on you, unless you are sadomasochistic and you enjoy discourse on something you hate

Do I ever get annoyed by the people that whine about manual reload, or how long it takes a character to reload a certain gun. It really does help with the immersion and tension needed for these kind of games. If I had to say something I would've really enjoyed, it would be Jack's reloading speed taking a hit (such as fumbling with the clip/shells/loader) if your sanity wasn't 100%, or maybe depending on how close to you the enemy was. I don't know about you but if I had a horde of fishmen shooting at me, my hands would be wiggling all over the place.

I didn't mean you Sir RoB, I meant the type of people I see on the Doom 3 forums all the time throwing a fit about how long it takes to reload the shotgun. >_O I can't believe I stopped myself from going on a Silent Hill tangent. It easily is my favorite horror series to date because of the fact that it relies more on aural and mental horror than making things pop out at you. I've beeing toying with the idea of novelizing SH2 for a long time, and with the help of an online script and my friend supplying the cutscenes I will be able to make this a reality soon.There's a sequel to 5 Days A Stranger called 7 Days A Skeptic. To me it's not as good but still really enjoyable.

The major problem in Thief was suspension of disbelief of the blind AI, the fact that they cannot see Garrett's backlit silhouette ("hmmm, didn't see that black statue shaped like a man there 5 minutes ago" :huh:), ultimately making me have to believe that he completely physically dissapears when in the smallest shadows, a gift from the Keepers.I'm guessing there are 2 starting difficulties, and you need to unlock higher ones. I'll start with the highest available, as my Thief/Undying/FPS skillz are faily l33t. If the game has any feel to it similar to Undying then I will be having a small orgism An insanity (why were they ever called sanity?) effect that would have been interesting would be fumbling and dropping bullets amidst the battles with eldritch horrors.

What in God's name you doing with that text of yours? I think you'll find more of a following here for Undying than not for. Storywise it felt superior with the journals and the backing of Clive Barker.I haven't got the game yet, it's in the post from England due in 4 days or so. Can't wait ^_^

Frankly: [censored].Large quantities of badly written text does not a great story make. An entirely predictable plot does not a great story-based game make. Clive Barker's glancing approval does not make this a game worthy of his fiction.Undying has some EXCELLENT execution and some brilliant ideas and is a genuinely fun game to play from an action standpoint (unlike some games I could blah blah). Eternal Autumn was a lovely direction to take the player but does not significantly forward the plot or enhance character.I fully accept that the designers intended to take players on a magical mystical and horrific journey come the next games in the series but from a story point Undying was rubbish.Again, I point out a game that has the dumbest of dumb plots but fantastic storytelling and character... C&C: Renegade. Or, hell, Anachronox. If you get the chance to play Anachronox grab it with both hands. I found a copy a few weeks ago and it's just smashing.Sorry, Undying just... brings out a bad reaction in me, I guess. I mean, DOOM 3 does the journals far better...Ah - as far as the text, the idea was to make it possible for you to read relevant text without drawing attention to spoilers. When I looked back at the page later on I realised it looked goofy as f?ck, so that's that gone...! =)Four days, eh? I must say, I'm looking forward to the input from the American contingent of our little party of adventurers - and indeed, input from my fellow sojourners Unnamable, Seta and Alfred...! --RoB

The plot for Undying was not initially predictable, you as Galloway went to the island to help a war buddy. It was revealed through the game the problems with the family through well scripted journals and flashback sound bytes using a nifty game mechanic. There was no need to enhance a static character. Not every protagonist needs to take a journey through character development to make a great character.I heard that Barker did most of the initial plot writing, so it wasn't just glancing approval unless EA butchered it up in post.

Okay, time to sink my rotting fangs into another post then. Heeere we go:Reverend Speed,Mar 30 2006, 11:34 PMBut opinions are like the limbs of a corpse: sooner or later they go their separate ways.Okay, you're going in my sig. If I remember by the time I end this post...Hehehe. Glad I could be of service to you sir!As far as movies go, I was most pleased with Dagon. It's not perfect by a long shot but they got so much right?! Especially the 'no one gets out sane' clause?!Alright, who went off their rocker and brought forth the Dagon movie?! People? Any takers? Oh, that was you Rob. Naughty, naughty. Tsk, tsk.Seriously though: The first time I watched it, I really really liked it. But with each subsequent viewing my revulsion (yes: I chose the word "revulsion") grew and grew. Sure enough, they got a few things right, but after a viewing or five, I suddenly couldn't look past the oh so typical Yuzna/Gordon banolities. And why ooooh why did they have to move the story from its excellent New England setting to far off Spain?! (Yes, I know it was more than likely due to production costs, but [censored] IT!) Not to mention the title itself... When I first read about the piece I was really excited because in my mind I got this whole long procession of moving images of the short-story Dagon, all playing out in all the glorious horror on an imaginative silvers creen. And what do i get? The Shadow Over Innsmouth?! Oh... Sorry... Imboca... Curse you Gordon! Curse you and all the halflings! Okay, they score some points on not ending the movie on a happy note, and the first half of the movie is really good as it really captures a lot of the feel in the original short story. But then they could resist going over the top with stiff-nipbled ta-ta's, horny tentacle girls, unwarranted gore and whatnot. Hoooold! Heh, you know what I just realized, Rob? The movie Dagon is to me what dark Corners is to you! Well, you learn something new each and every day. And I probably come off sounding a lot harsher when it comes to the Dagon flick than I mean to. After all, I am a great fan of the first two Re-animator movies (haven't seen the third installment), but some things just... Well, it just sets my temper off. I guess I'm not too fond of people tempering too much with the source material (Lurking Horror anyone?).I think you've pinned what I wanted from Dark Corners. I'm not asking for players to bury their heads in tomes, but instead I wanted an extended cast I could learn from and get to know... before watching them all hit the Mythos mill. In order to do this realistically you do need to extend the period of time the game takes place over, if not the length of the game. To cut a long story short:Yes!Okay, then I'm with you. Now I truly get what it is you so greatly desired. I can thus also understand your critisism a whole lot better. Me, I didn't really have any preconceptions about the game whatsoever. I was just looking forward to playing it. I've found that the less expectations you have of something -the less you risk being disappointed by it. But perhaps you didn't have any particular expectations either and simply were disappointed as you ventured deeper and deeper into the game. Your ideas would make for a great game though. It wouldn't be Dark Corners, but it would still be a great game. There's a time and place for everything. Well, almost when we're dealing with material related to HPL *although greatly fascinated by the human desire and need for various varied copulating acts, the Foot did not appreciate the S/M-scenes in the Yuzna From Beyond flick*Totally agree with you on the Resi / SH puzzles ? they're interesting as abstract challenges but as far as consistency goes? totally throws believability out the window. I don't care how twisted my psyche is, I'm not that obscenely obtuse.Frankly: They are nuts. Every time I actually managed to beat one of them puzzles I got the almost uncontrollable urge to stand up and yell "ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US!" at the TV-screen. In my more misanthropic moments I suspect that those two A-bombs dropped in '45 had more long lasting effects than anyone could possibly imagine... Crazy, insane, illogical, seizure-inducing puzzles... *mumble mumble*Thanks to Headfirst for the translation puzzle in the lower depths of the Order of Dagon. THAT was a brilliant puzzle ? methinks you had problems with it Mr. West but? oh, the joy of realising: Hang on, they're not the code, they're the keys, so? eye arrow eye eight eye eight? YES! A believable 'academic' puzzle.Ehrm... Eh.... Ahem... Hrrm... Hm... Yes... I had some... Ehm... "difficulties" with that particular.... puzzle. Hm, yes...And then on the other hand, defend this one: "My daughter; I love her so much I'll make her birthday the code to my safe, starting clockwise." (My emphasis) Seems like a terribly strange thing to put in your diary, but in comparison to Dark Corner's contemporaries it's a very small crime so we'll let it go.Defend that one? Mkay, no problem. Mr Waite, a most gentle and humble person, had over a pro-longed period of time watch his beloved wife slowly turn into an abominable monstrosity who -to boot- smelled like the unwashed private parts of a woman lying dead in still waters for two weeks. This must undoubtedly have taken its toll on his mental state. And then, to ad dinsult to injury, the maddening and heartbreaking realisation that his daughter, his precious beloved daughter, would eventually turn into the same thing as that monstrosity locked away in his attic, finally hit the poor man. This anguish and mental torment took an enourmous toll on his already fragile psyche and, as a result from that, Mr. Waite suffered some debilitating mental disorders. The chief among them being mental isolation and separation from the world around him. This, in turned, caused his memory and mind to go astray at times. His thoughts would wonder untold, far off vistas. Thus he had to jut down his safe code in his diary so that he himself would not forget it. Look: watertight case. The owls are not what they seem ? exactly. Can you remember the dynamic camera from start of SH1? The dog body, the siren, the darkening streets, bloody stretchers and then? absolute chaos. An amazing moment which has never been captured since.The thing that will probably stick with me for the rest of my life from that particular game is that long, partially illuminated hallway in the school. When my radio started to give out an insane amount of crackling static, and one of those deformed travesties of an aborted foetus came limping out from the darkness for the first time in the game. Absolute and total revulsion and dread. Though I must admit at cackling maniacally as I finished that little bugger off with a nice golfswing with my rusted iron pipe.Okay, I will definately take a look at that website too then.I agree with you on the sub-categorisation (ahh, intelligent consensus? I love it. Just need a self-congratulatory comment here? there we go?). If Dark Corners wants to be considered Survival Horror, however, it has to be compared like with like. To borrow from films, I'd put Doom 3 & Resident Evil in the 'spatter / gore' category while placing Dark Corners & Silent Hill into the psychological horror subsection (though Dark Corners still has a few too many gun fights for me to be entirely comfortable with that placement). Clive Barker's Undying / Dark Corners / The Suffering are definately soul mates, however. Unfortuantely Doom 3 also fits into that category. Aaagh. Getting confused, now. Any thoughts?Hmm... I'm not entirely sure about D3 (which I... *ta-daaa* have played), but RE definately goes into the splatter/gore genre. I likewise agree about SH. But, my reservation comes with Dark Corners. Seeing as to how it mixes a little bit from column A and a little bit from cloumn B it really deserves to be put in a separate category. What we would name that category I have not yet thought out though. "Intelligent Survival Horror that goes BANG-BANG in the Night and Could be Considered Derivative of Horror Literature"? ISHBBNCCDHL! Ehm... Scratch that. I shouldn't have broached the subject of sub-categories.The reason I'm undecisive on the matter of D3 is that I haven't been able to categorize it for myself even. Sure it has freakish monsters and lots of dark corners. But is it scary/harrowing/atmospheric? No. It has tons and tons of big guns. "Ooooh, guns guns, guns!" Nah, despite the references to demonic entities and whatnot it's a plain shooter to me. Albeit perhaps dressed up in Halloween garb.And no: the second Refinery level didn't drive me insane. I actually enjoyed that part! SICKNESS!Yieess. *points to his own signature*Well, Mr. West, I must try the game again in Boy Scout mode. I'll be interested to note the differences, if any, that play out in the second Refinery level. Simply put, randomly respawning enemies in a puzzle-based level with some awkward fighting mechanics does not a happy RoBert make.Am at that level now. Replaying the entire game on Boy Scout once again. And there's definite oppurtunities to sneak and avoid most enemies. Or, if that's one's cup o' tea: sneak up to them and dispatch them. Either way I don't get any run&gun feelings when I'm playing that. I just try to get me **** done and high tail it outta there.Ostfront sounds EXCELLENT. I'll definitely look into it? though I'm getting a little more into sci-fi action games again. After the crime that was Quake 4, I'm really looking forward to Quake Wars. Ahh, Splash Damage, what can't you do? Ahem. Anyway.Oh, it is excellent. I've seen a lot of complaints over at the Ostfront forum, but that came in the general direction of a whole bunch of adolescent noobs who wanted nothing less than to run around like John Wayne on Omaha Beach and gun every living thing in sight down. Pish-posh!Calamity, totally agree with you on sanity affecting the reload. Frankly, I'd have loved it if on AUTOMATIC RELOAD of the rifle Jack fumbled the clip ? sending it bouncing down the corridor. THAT would have been a helluva sanity effect. He'd have to jam in the next clip extra quick, however, to compensate for player annoyance.That would absolutely ROCK!. But... Being the sadist/machocist I am, I would love it even more if you still had to manually reload, and then he fumbles away one of them clips.

Uhm... I just realized that my previous post made me sound like a eh... stalker. Sorry Raveness. :unsure:

I loved Undying, I thought story was excellent, tho I'm a Clive Barker fan so I would. I don't see why other people enjoying this game is such a big deal to you Reverend Speed, I'm sure that there's plenty of, what I would consider ****, in your collection. The fact of the matter is, I enjoyed it and that's all that really matters to me. I came to the conclusion that some of the Gel'zaibar Stone's spells were a little superfluous when leveled up, but other than that I enjoyed the game as a whole.I don't know how much involvement Clive Barker had in story and plotlines, tho I do know that the Ambrose character was based on him, so he must have had a reasonable amount of involvement, right from character creation -I'd say that he was quite heavily involved in it tho, most of the NPC's ooze, Barker. Even if he wasn't massively involved, the fact that Clive Barker was willing to put his name to it, is reason enough for me to at least give it a fighting chance. Which I did, and I'm glad that I did, I even played it through two or three times before shelving it.

As far as I know Ambrose wasn't based on Mr. Barker, though he did voice the character. It's only a coupla lines, but it's still a kinda cool touch."YOU HAVE NO IDEA OF WHAT YOU'RE MEDDLING IN", or somesuch.I don't intend my comments on Undying to be taken as a personal attack - I just find that the story and storytelling of Undying does not deserve the praise I occasionally see heaped on it.If somebody tells me that this is a good story, it's my natural reaction to respond:"No it's not. And here's why."Bleh. Just deleted a whole loada challenging rubbish. Let's just call the whole thing off and get back to Dark Corners, shall we?Friends? =) --RoB

Reverend Speed,Mar 31 2006, 02:14 AM...hmm... still not sure that that's the quote I had in mind, actually. Still looking...You sure it's not the quote from the introduction to the Books of Blood you're thinking of then?http://www.clivebarker.info/undying.htmlhas a good bit of stuff on the game but I still see very little to indicate that Barker did more than superficially troubleshoot what was there already.And the man goes and beats me to the punch. Grrmhh... It seems he's resposible for most of the story though. The narrative part at least.

Let's just call the whole thing off and get back to Dark Corners, shall we?Hey, I haven't even left ze tark cornerz in ze first place. (Not that the above was directed at me but aaaanyhoooo )

Oh man. One save. Oh, you have my sympathies.I highly doubt that the text in the game was of Barker's origin. More likely he gave the designers a rough outline and told... them... to... where's my copy of the Undying manual? Credits, credits......ackh, doesn't mention who wrote the text. But Barker doesn't even appear in the credits except under 'Special Thanks', which speaks volumes to me. Methinks he made rough notes and left them to it. But perhaps you shouldn't trust the word of a man who thinks credits lists speak to him.No scares? Doom 3? No? Jesus man, you must have nerves of steel. Ah well. It was never going to go down in the Survival Horror hall of fame... but I still really enjoyed that game.id CANNOT tell a story, sell a twist or keep their mouth shut about later events in a preview, that's for sure. You might have hoped for that in Doom 3, but you never expected it...!OKAY! I'll try the game again. Fine.The King Kong DVD release? It's just going... to... waitaminute. REEFER MADNESS! REEFER MAAADNESS! --RoBPS: Going TO BED NOW. Night.

Damn it, Reverend. No free beer for you!Yes, Mr. West is "slightly" intoxicated. I will post more comphrehensible stuff tomorrow. And then I'll come to Ireland(?) and kick your a*s.

HAH! NOT IF I KICK IT FIR--...I'll get me coat. --RoB

[irony]Dude, where were you on St. Patrick's day! =) I made an interesting and informative post about the way the Lovecraftian horror was rooted in Irish culture and mythology!Which nobody responded to....Alright, Poe counts too, I suppose.[/irony] --RoB

I am very grateful of this very constructive (though perhaps ultimately meaningless -then again what isn't?) thread. You have made some excellent points here about the good and bad aspects of the game among other things and sparkled a very interesting conversation (in my opinion, anyway). The idea about multiple protagonists was excellent! I hope that there are people among us here who will some day take heed of the ideas on this thread while making a game of their own. In fact, i've always wanted to make a horror game *blushes*. Maybe some day...OT: About Clive Barker's Undying: I do not know why Raveness expects or hopes for the game to be anything like Undying. I liked some aspects of Undying but i did not find the game very atmosfearic, even less so scary. Sure, it had that nice cliched hounted mansion feeling, groovy ideas such as the spells (didn't like the lightning, wasn't the skull attack more powerful?), Oneiros, magical and mystic aura and Galloway's outrageous accent, but horror? Not really. Undying is about kicking ass in a mystic ghost story setting but DCotE is more about being slowly swallowed into a world of things whose very existence is blasphemy, things that consider you're existence to be blasphemy, and you have to fight to find the strength to not kill yourself in the presence of such hideous beings. Or so it was supposed to be if it wasn't for the problems Rev mentioned.You know, i had no idea Ambrose was voice acted by Barker himself? Wasn't Ambrose the guy with the huge axe? I really liked his voice, it sounded as if it was someone not quite well but strenghtened by righteous anger. It sounded just right, of the covenant siblings i hated Ambrose the least. In fact i almost liked him.About the reloading the guns in DCotE, i forgot to mention this earlier: I'm with Foot and the others on this. It makes it just more exciting and somehow cinematic when you find yourself clicking the empty gun repeatedly while in a fiery battle against those ugly unholy fishf?cks. Besides it would take something out of the game if you wouldn't be able to notice you're gun is empty ten minutes after the last shot you fired. Face it Rev: the whole manual reloading fits perfectly into the game. Everybody here thinks so, so why not try to think of it as a positive thing. JOINNN USSSS!Oh, and there's a thread about the ending of the game in the spoilers forum, you are all welcome there (once you have completed the game!). I bet i wasn't the only one who didn't feel the last cutscene completely explained things such as Jack's weird gift. Come, let us discuss the storyline there.

What's this Condemmed game that I (as usual) seems to have missed out on?