Dialogue and skill checks : Fallout: New Vegas

» Sun Mar 06, 2011 11:20 pm

So I got this game yesterday and while it's not bad(though it's very glitchy), the one thing I was hoping they would improve the most would be dialogue. They did improve it somewhat, but the skill checks they put in the conversations feel tacked on. Usually after you go through one the conversation is basically over and you have what you need. I was hoping they would make this more involved like you see in a game like Baldurs Gate or KoToR so playing a character who is more diplomatic would feel more rewarding and immersive. Anyone else agree and hope they work on this for the next Elder Scrolls/Fallout?

» Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:57 pm

It couldn't hurt to improve the dialogue but they did a fantastic job already.

Edit: I didn't vote since it's a false option. I doubt anyone would say no to having improved dialogue. My answer would be 'It's fine the way it is'.

» Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:47 pm

I like the dialogue wheel system in Mass Effect myself, but any move away from a simple checklist of responses would be good to see for the next TES and beyond.

» Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:01 pm

Certainly it can be improve, but IMO it isn't top priority

» Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:07 am

I like the dialogue wheel system in Mass Effect myself, but any move away from a simple checklist of responses would be good to see for the next TES and beyond.

The dialogue wheel is a good design but the only difference between it and the current system in Fallout is the basic design. Both systems lead to the same conclusion... Moving the conversation forward.

Besides, Mass Effect One was plagued with false options in dialogue. For instance, there were many conversation choices that seemed different but ended up having Shepard say the same thing.

» Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:53 pm

It couldn't hurt to improve the dialogue but they did a fantastic job already.

Edit: I didn't vote since it's a false option. I doubt anyone would say no to having improved dialogue. My answer would be 'It's fine the way it is'.

Yeah I understand. But some people may like it the way it is and probably just want to the developers to focus on exploration. NV seems like an improvement in that they are condensing the world and trying to improve the dialogue compared to oblivion and fallout 3 where the world was bigger, your decisions and dialogue didnt matter much, and people had more things to explore despite IMO it giving a false sense of exploration

» Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:48 pm

I think it's fine the way it is.

» Sun Mar 06, 2011 11:02 pm

Yeah I understand. But some people may like it the way it is and probably just want to the developers to focus on exploration. NV seems like an improvement in that they are condensing the world and trying to improve the dialogue compared to oblivion and fallout 3 where the world was bigger, your decisions and dialogue didnt matter much, and people had more things to explore despite IMO it giving a false sense of exploration

Oh I know what you mean. I think Obsidian did a pretty fantastic job but there's always room for improvement. I'd just rather they would on making me some more weapon mods! :flamethrower: :flame:
There are many more instances of my dialogue having an impact on the outcome of things however. They're generally overshadowed by my actions however.

» Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:02 pm

if it is the way you describe people are gonna miss a lot of content, because they don't have the skill level

» Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:38 pm

if it is the way you describe people are gonna miss a lot of content, because they don't have the skill level

How? All it does is encourage replability. Alternative options revolving around combat and intimidation could always exist like they do in other rpgs.

» Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:18 pm

The dialogue wheel is a good design but the only difference between it and the current system in Fallout is the basic design. Both systems lead to the same conclusion... Moving the conversation forward.

Oh absolutely, it's a cosmetic difference as much as anything, but I find it ever-so-slightly more engaging than the checklist system as a result. I'm not cheerleading for Mass Effect, just talking about different approaches to the mechanics of dialogue.

» Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:11 pm

Oh absolutely, it's a cosmetic difference as much as anything, but I find it ever-so-slightly more engaging than the checklist system as a result. I'm not cheerleading for Mass Effect, just talking about different approaches to the mechanics of dialogue.

I understand. That's just one of my pet-peeves with it. That and how it doesn't mark options you've chosen already. I hate that it doesn't track your previous conversation picks.

» Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:26 pm

i thought the dialogue for the most part was great. I found it very engaging, so I can't really vote since I thought it was good to begin with.

» Sun Mar 06, 2011 11:32 am

I would have liked it if the checks weren't auto win they just open up more and more convincing dialogue. Think of the conversation with Myron about the Jet cure. You say something he counters you have dialogue options to counter his idea and so forth until you convince him your Idea can work.

» Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:16 pm

The dialogue was better this time around, but I'll bet they could 1-up themselves if given the time/resources.

» Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:09 pm

How? All it does is encourage replability. Alternative options revolving around combat and intimidation could always exist like they do in other rpgs.

are you gonna play NV 8 different times?

» Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:19 pm

are you gonna play NV 8 different times?

One of my friends over on the Bio social forums played ME 2 like 144 times. So you never know....

» Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:14 pm

Dialogue is way better then FO3. Talking with Cass the first time I was supprised about the things she says. Still I did not vote because it could always be better but the devs did a great job so I am not complaning.

» Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:44 am

One of my friends over on the Bio social forums played ME 2 like 144 times. So you never know....

2 things, I am sorry for your friend
and those games you can beat in no time, but an open world game takes weeks
I beat bioshock 2 in 2 days, I beat fallout in like a month, and I still didn't finish the side quests. Assassins creed 2 did take a full week though, that was an awesome game, can't wait for brotherhood

» Mon Mar 07, 2011 1:56 am

One thing I think they shouldn't do anymore is reveal the requirement in advance. For speech checks you can see exactly how many skill points you're short of convincing someone, and when it's less than 10 you can just reload and read a magazine or whatever. It's too game-y.

I like the real speech requirement for succes more than FO3's speech succes dice roll (which also encourages reloading the game and trying again) but I it would be better if it would just tag the line as a line based on your speech skill, without mentioning any requirements or chances for succes.

» Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:41 pm

are you gonna play NV 8 different times?
If you're going to ask that question don't respond with a snide remark when someone gives you the answer you weren't hoping to get.
As of right now the only reason to replay NV is for seeing the different endings because of factions. If I like NV by the time I finish the game then I will. Having replayability is never a bad thing especially with an rpg.

One thing I think they shouldn't do anymore is reveal the requirement in advance. For speech checks you can see exactly how many skill points you're short of convincing someone, and when it's less than 10 you can just reload and read a magazine or whatever. It's too game-y.

I like the real speech requirement for succes more than FO3's speech succes dice roll (which also encourages reloading the game and trying again) but I it would be better if it would just tag the line as a line based on your speech skill, without mentioning any requirements or chances for succes.

I agree. I don't know why they would put that in there.

» Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:45 pm

I think set skill needed is way better than chance; in FO3 you never up your speech because you know, just reload.

And having the number needed display save me time from flicking through guide/the vault, so I like it.

» Sun Mar 06, 2011 11:20 pm

So I got this game yesterday and while it's not bad(though it's very glitchy), the one thing I was hoping they would improve the most would be dialogue. They did improve it somewhat, but the skill checks they put in the conversations feel tacked on. Usually after you go through one the conversation is basically over and you have what you need. I was hoping they would make this more involved like you see in a game like Baldurs Gate or KoToR so playing a character who is more diplomatic would feel more rewarding and immersive. Anyone else agree and hope they work on this for the next Elder Scrolls/Fallout?

I disagree on the games. Both BG an KOTOR were the same way. If you passed them you got what you wanted. Plain and simple. Also I disagree on them beeing tacked on. They fit very well.

To name a really good one would be in Arcanum when you were playing a diplomat for two nations and actually had to inform yourself about the nation to get your way through the dialouge.

» Mon Mar 07, 2011 1:52 am

Although even the most persuasive demagogue can sometime just say exactly the wrong thing.

To give an example let us say that the Demagogue Toll Story is trying to get Ann Other to join up and help the Autocratic cause with his patented do it for Jimmy speech but is unaware that Ann's husband Jimmy had just been slaughtered out of hand without any cause last week by the Autocrats troops. Now her reaction is more than likely to be at the very least to tell Toll to shove his cause where the sun don't shine, more probably to just turn and attack him.

This I think is a perfect example for why even the most capable speaker should have a chance of flubbing the check.

» Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:31 pm

Although even the most persuasive demagogue can sometime just say exactly the wrong thing.

Indeed.

I think the checks would be better off as more of gates to open up a certain dialogtree inside which you could then try, with the right words, to persuade for the bonus the check was intending to offer. For at least some of the bigger and more important conversations.
While the skillchecks are now better used than what they were, I don't particularly like the be all end all nature of them that leaves little to no guessing on how to proceed when you see one.