I really want to love this game, and there are so many things about it that I DO love. It's beautiful, it's rich with detail and lore, and it's full of overwhelming possibilities.

I know there are many who don't care much about combat or melee combat in particular, but it's one of the things that's most important to me in an RPG/Action game, maybe THE most important. It has been ever since I started playing the Gothic series (my first RPG), then the incredible "Blade of Darkness" and most recently The Witcher 2, which had a very strong combat engine.

I knew that combat was never a strong point in the Elder Scrolls games before, and, to be honest, that always kept me from doing more than dabbling in Morrowind and Oblivion. I was hoping Skyrim would be different. Sadly, it doesn't seem to be.

I'm early in the game, but combat has not been fun for me at all at this point. The animations are slow and lumbering (playing a Nord), there doesn't seem to be much strategy involved, just whack away, take healing potion, run, return to whack away, sometimes blast with fire spell while whacking away. Collisions with the weapons don't feel realistic at all, nor do actual hits achieved with the weapons. The occasional kill animations seem to come out of nowhere and don't feel fluid. In short, melee combat is svcking for me right now. I find myself laying back and using arrows, which is fun for awhile, but I want to get in there and hack some limbs off creatures and bandits.

I need to know if this experience improves as the game progresses. Does training up my one or two-handed technique open up any new moves, make combat more fun, more rewarding? Are there any planned mods (or available ones) that attempt to overhaul and improve the combat system? If this is what I have to look forward to for the rest of the game, I'm afraid it's going to end up being a deal-breaker for me, and I'm going to lose interest, much like I did in the earlier games. If my character is going to look like a sword-wielding bad-ass, I should FEEL like one when I play. I have no problem working to level up and improve as the game goes on - that's the way the Gothic games were, and once you became powerful, it was an incredible feeling because of how hard you had to work to get there. But if melee combat is going to always svck in Skyrim, I don't know how much more time I'll be wanting to spend there.

If I understand the points about which you're annoyed correctly, then: No, I'm sorry. But what you could try is raise the difficulty, so you do have to think about when you block and when you "whack away".

Oh and you could try PISE. Which improves the AI by quite a lot, maybe that helps too. http://www.skyrimnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=1269

Yes, it gets better.

I find I prefer, for melee, 2-handed weapons (greatswords in particular). As you unlock 2H perks and also block perks (QR in particular) melee becomes much more interesting. QR (Quick Reflexes) is an easily attained perk (only requires 30 in block and one perk spent to get the block tree going). While holding block, if the enemy tries to do a power attack the game goes into slow motion, so you have time to sidestep and catch them off guard with an attack of your own. Makes melee much more tactical. I also find that melee in 3rd person is superior to melee in 1st person. I have the camera set to about half the distance it can be, away from my character, while in combat. This allows me to manually dodge blows and not get surrounded. In effect, 3rd person gives you the perception of your environment that first person can't (since 1st person means you have zero peripheral vision, which is very unnatural to me).

It's also important (and rewarding) to learn the timing of the different weapons. Any 2H weapon is going to be slower than any 1H weapon, so you need to learn its timing to not waste blows. And no matter what weapon you prefer, unless you are dual-wielding, it pays to learn when to block.

I find melee in Skyrim a lot more interesting than in Oblivion, and not just with 2H'ers. I also like the way sword-and-board works. Dual wielding looks cool, but since it has zero blocking I don't like it as much. YMMV.

For archers/assassins melee is really just for when you mess up, in my view, since most kills will be one-shot backstabs or a shot or two from a distance.

In Skyrim, it's the gear that makes you powerful. Always has been in past Elderscrolls. Part of the fun in melee is dodging enemy attacks and countering with your own. Also using daedric artifacts and whatever else you find, scrolls, staves, bows, etc. But no, there aren't any moves you will learn leveling up. I admit it would be cool to see some combo moves, or limb damage. Turning up the difficulty will require you to block more and time your counter attacks better though if that's any help.

Sure, you CAN just "whack away" and win most fights, but you do realize you can dodge hits if you time your movements, and you can block if you correctly time using your shield, right?

Is it because you don't HAVE to use these mechanics to survive (assuming you have enough potions) that you find it boring, or do you use them and still find it boring?

Myself, I've never been a big fan of "twitch" type combat, favoring battles being decided more by the math of the gear and skill levels than by timing, but this small of twitch involved in Skyrim combat is actually pretty fun for me. It's not COMPLETELY dependent on how good your hand-eye coordination is, but it's also not unimportant, either. It seems like a good mix, to me.

Fun experiment, give your friend a large stick or broom. Tell him to try and hit you as hard as he can while you try to dodge him. It can get pretty intense. (Pick a friend who's not mad at you first) Gives me some appreciation for Skyrim's combat.

I do, but at the moment, early in the game, my character is so slow and his reflexes seem so poor that I'm still taking damage when blocking. I'm using a shield and single-handed sword at the moment. Dodging seems equally slow and ponderous. BTW, I'm playing on a PC with a gamepad if that makes a difference.



See, I MUCH prefer a twitch-based combat system over mathematically driven ones, which tend to bore me silly and lessen my immersion level. I realize there's a lot of stats anolysis involved in Skyrim's combat, which is probably in part why it doesn't seem "realistic" enough for me.


Ah, very interesting, as I prefer third-person view for melee combat, too. As mentioned above, I'm playing on a PC with a gamepad and didn't realize there were distance settings for the camera. I bought this on sale on STEAM, so I guess I should crack open the digital manual. I've found that the default camera distance in third person doesn't work well for me in fights, so I continually switch into FP, which I generally don't prefer with this kind of combat.

Thanks for all the comments, everyone. I will keep trying.

One of the downfalls is trying to provide for both 1st and 3rd person views. If they would just stick to one they could get that one stronger. Instead it's a halfway system for both views. They need to pick a perspective and stick with it.

I played (and 100% gamerscored) Dark Souls before playing Skyrim (which means I played it a lot and become very familiar with the combat. The fluidity and amount of combat options available in dark Souls compared to Skyrim is night and day. I went into Skyrim thinking I might not enjoy it actually, but even given its sloppy combat it took my personal GOTY because of the amazing world and the free form gameplay.

I'm looking forward to Kingdoms of Amalur for my combat fix. They seem to have some serious attention to the animation in that game.

Animation is BGS kryptonite and I think it may have to do with 1. the engine and 2. the dual perspective gameplay. They need to pick a perspective and stick with it.

YES! Played "Demon's Souls," but have yet to play "Dark Souls," but have always thought that a combination of these two games would make, by far, the best game of all-time. DS has, as you say, absolutely incredible combat mechanics, EXACTLY what I'm looking for, My problem with those games was the lack of story, an inability to really relate to your character. Skyrim has great stories, an incredible world, etc., but lacks greatly in the area of combat. I want BOTH of these things in one game.

As for Amalur, I'll be watching that one, but the combat in that, from what I've seen, is very over-the-top, with gigantic and ridiculously oversized weapons and crazy color explosions with every move. I want more realism.

I've said it before - "Blade of Darkness" was the best combat scheme ever devised for the PC. I think that game can be downloaded for free now somewhere. You could hack off limbs, heads, legs, learn great combos, etc. I just don't get why the genre can only seem to have one facet or the other: Great Open World and weak combat or great combat and weak story.

If your aiming for a more "viseral" feel for the combat and don't get that from the animations, then you probably won't think it will get better.

However, the combat itself can be enhanced with perks you get from respective trees depending on what type of melee character you choose.

One handed sword and board

- The entire block perk tree opens up new maneuvers and abilities. I particularly liked block runner as I was able to move normal speed with my shield, so I didn't have to waste
stamina on blocking if I didn't have to
- Savage Strike and Critical charge open up more animations and moves

Dual Wield

- No blocking, but same one handed perks apply
- Elemental fury shout can greatly increase attack speed if your finding combat slow as is

Two Handed

- As far as the blocking, stick to the right side of the perk tree as those still apply to two-handers and a combo of power swings with bashing may help with the combat experience
- Pretty much the same perks as one handed, but sweep is a big advantage of this perk tree

Hope this helps. Personally, I found the combat to be a little better as the game went on due to the perks/shouts I mentioned above. Maybe you just need a little more time.

No, it's always pretty awkward/clunky looking and feeling. There are some perks that add a few new options but they don't look or feel much better. Raising your skill doesn't change the basic melee animations. Archery is the way to go in the game if you want to avoid the issues you listed - it's overpowered but at least it's considerably better "feeling" wise especially when your arrows stagger people with the Power Shot perk.

Combat is much better then the predecessors, has that more intense combat feel and Swords swing like Swords, not like rubber swords in Oblivion.

Melee combat is awesome in Skyrim

Much much better than its predecessors

which weren't that great to begin with ;p

And that is probably the one annoyance to end all annoyances for me, in this series. My philosophy is completely the opposite - it's should be primarily the character's skill, and not the items that define them.

Still too much emphasis on items and numbers, and not enough on the actual character and varied combat mechanics. If they're going for the whole immersive, visceral gameplay, then there needs to be a lot done to reduce the clunkiness of combat (too much to state in a short post).

But I'd be happy as long as there's a balance between the two viewpoints - you should be able to do both - eitther spend your time crafting items to make the character powerful, or spend time training inherent skills to do the same, or some combination of the two.

The game without a strong sense of itemization and progression, that greatly impact performance would no longer be an RPG but your run of the mill action adventure game in a huge sand box. As it stands currently, itemization and character investment already has minimal impact on performance. Items have fixed stats and levels really do not matter much just your skill level. A low level character can best something 20+ levels higher than them. I would say that works almost identically to how you envision it. I don't think there is enough character investment, and at the same time I think combat is extremely limited. There are no combat skills or abilities and minimal defensive manuevers.

Also it is funny people (not you) cite the Witcher 2 for having good combat mechanics lol. Let's see, Witcher 2 combat looked like this. Swing, rolly-poly away. Apply the Shield Magic, rinse and repeat. If your enemy is big, you Stagger it and hit it in the back and repeat. Oh, you could "parry" and "riposte" by timing blocking like Assassin's Creed too which was cheesy con queso.

I bet the most people won't know the game but the best sword fighting animations i have seen on PC was in "Knights of the Temple 2" You couldn't cut of any parts but that wasn't ever a point in melee combat. The combat in Skyrim is better then in Oblivion, but it is useless to add so playing stuff like swinging around the sword like "Oh look i am the hero i am the best sword fighter you can't hurt me". It should have a bit realism even if it is a fantasy RPG.

Die By the Sword had this. Mouse Movements would move your weapon and what you collide with depending on force, angle, and armor could wound, disable, or lop off that body part. Spanish game. Very old.

oh, as far as the kill anims, they seem to come most commonly when the final blow is issued with the dominant hand (right hand). I first noticed this with the sneak and dagger perk. No kill anim with left hand. If I reload and do the same kill with the right hand I will get an anim. Just a theory though, no proof yet.

I'm not against "itemisation" as such, but more the quantity and importance that is placed on it.
For example, enchanting your apparel - is it your character that has the skill, or the clothes they are wearing? Same goes for weapons or anything else.

Sure, items should make you more powerful, but for roleplaying there should also be the option to hone the character's skills such that they can become powerful without the need of powerful items.
A character highly skilled with a sword should be able to use a rubbish (iron) weapon, and still be able to defeat a character who has little sword skill, but is using an enchanted glass sword (for argument's sake).
As such, they should have more options (combat animations and abilities) with that iron sword, which is how they can succeed.

I agree they should have more combat animations and abilities, but the damage you deal is going to be controlled by an algorithm. What equipment you are wearing, your skill level, those variables. They have made improvements already in that chance-to-hit is dictated entirely by player skill and not character. Defense (outside of mitigation and the Light Armor top Perk) but avoidance is controlled entirely through active mechanics, same as Blocking. Currently, because of this, a character with a high skill in say one-handed weapons, can use an inferior quality item and STILL kill enemies with ease.

I would say the system works perfectly for what you want it for.

The sad fact is that's still a lot more than Skyrim has going for it.

IIRC they rebalanced a fair amount though in patches and free DLC, the shield I'm almost certain got nerfed.

I use Sword & Board on my Lvl 27 Nord Warrior, and it feels pretty good on him. I'm able to kill Giants and Mammoths on him by blocking their attack, and as soon as they recoil, launch my own attack, then block their next attack, etc. My hits have a bit more "weight" to them as well considering i'm using a Mace. Timing my Shield Bashes for when they attempt a Power Attack then releasing 2-3 solid hits on them before they can recover is really nice. I seem to stagger the crap out of most normal sized enemies with my hits, probably because i'm using a Mace with a Bone Breaker perked Nord who's set at the max weight setting. He looks like a bear or bull.


Dead wrong. Oldschool Ultima Online placed MUCH more emphasis on character and player skill (In the case of a Mage template) than equipment. A skilled Mage could run around butt naked with nothing but a reg bag, and kill 3 other people who were geared up. Most people ran around in GM player crafted gear instead of their best magic equipment, due to the fact that when you died, everything you had on you dropped on your corpse, and could be looted by anyone passing by, even monsters. UO was the ultimate RPG of MMORPGs, and also had the most hardcoe PvP rules of any MMORPG. The Elder Scrolls series itself, was heavily influenced by the Ultima series and UO.

This was a great game. Used to play it on LAN with my friends. Really exciting combat. Tried it a year or so ago, just to relive the glory, but now it seemed kind of slow.

Still, the system was brilliant, and no other game I know of has done combat this way.

I would settle for a system like Might and magic, Dark messiah, though. Close enough.

I found that when I got levled to somewhere in the 20's with one-handed perks for the blade, that some kill animations are nice especially if you have an enchanted weapon. There is one perk that will decapitate the enemy if you are lucky. You never know when you will see the animations. I lucked out killing a dragon with a one-handed blade and the animation showed my elf jump on the dragons neck, wrestle a little and then stick the enchanted blade named Dragonbane into it's skull. Really nice. Then the guards cautioned me about approaching them with my weapon out.