I'm not getting this part. So let's assume I don't level enchanting for infinite magicka, and I use Vokun (-20% Alteration spells) and Archmage's Robes (-15% Alteration spells), I still need 545 points of magicka to cast Dragonhide? Last I tried it with Conjuration, the master level cost reduction perks do not stack with enchanted gear; i.e. 50% reduction in master level Conjuration spells + 2 pieces of fortify conjuration = 50% spell reduction, not 100%. Can anyone give me some insights on how this is supposed to work for a pure mage that wants to play "normally" without abusing enchanting?

Abuse alchemy, of course.

That's a rouge skillset. Is there some arcane intention of the devs that I'm over looking? Because I'm not seeing the viability of a pure mage that doesn't abuse anything and can still be a force to be reckoned with.

You say, "Abusing" enchanting. You can get 100% resist by just maxing out the tree. That's not abusing it, that's playing within the bounds of the system.

Using resto potions to get your enchanting up to 600000000% and making 1-hit weapons is abusing the system (and fun for about 30 minutes).

And take off the Mexican goat herder robes (Arch-Mage), they're not very good. Put on some master robes for -25%.

Edited: Sorry I didn't realize the perks didn't stack with skill gear. Seems like terrible design to me, but I suggest working on enchanting anyway.

Enchanting doesn't take nearly as long as alchemy to level up (alchemy is TERRIBLE). It's a mage (and really pretty useful for everyone) ancillary skill that'll take you far.

I believe you will be gimped pretty hard if you don't use it. I believe the intention was for each prime archetype (rouge, warrior, mage) to take at least one crafting skill.

Tired of the word 'abuse' on these forums. You get 8 enchanting slots for spell cost reduction if you max enchanting. There are 5 schools. Each would require 4 slots to make 0-cost. It's a tradeoff between mastery of 2 schools, or competence in many schools.

To answer your question, as your skill gains in a school, mana costs reduce. At 100 skill, mana costs are about 1/3, if I remember correctly. Add in the perk, and it's 1/6... About 140 mana.

I'm guessing that the devs made it that high so you had to get the half cost for spells perks. I also get more information for this since you can only get the spells when you nearly max out the skill, so naturally you should have the perks for it.

First of all, Enchanting isn't abusing! You need 6 perks to be able to get 25% reduction (max without comboing), which can only be applied to 4 armor pieces, giving a nice round 100%. It's obvious that one of the rewards of max enchanting is to be able to cast spells of one school for free.

Secondly, use perks.

As I've mentioned, perks and enchanted gear don't stack. Tried that before on Conjuration, so maybe it is different for Alteration? Btw, I don't have a problem with getting enchantment to 100 and craft 100% free magicka gear. I've already played through 3 characters with maxed enchantment/alchemy/smithing and I'm looking to do it from another view point of strictly adhering to one archtype of skills and limiting the boundaries.

edit: just saw the replies. You can get all 5 schools free with 100 enchant - just craft 3 sets of gear, either change them 1 by 1 via the items menu or just hotkey them.

Ah, so 100 skill in any school reduces magicka cost. That makes much more sense now, and I'll check out the master's robes.

The perks and enchanting not stacking is very very weird to me. I'm going to have to double-check that, cuz that has to be a bug. The cost reduction per skill point is certain though... although the final reduction is 40%, not 1/3. My bad there.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Magic_Overview#Spell_Cost

I don't use multiple gear-sets, which is why my thinking may appear a bit limited. It's one thing to pause to select a different spell, but changing clothes in the middle of a fight seems weird.. unless it's just swapping gloves or something.

IIRC, mana cost reduction perks and Fortify enchants stack multiplicatively. Thus, if you have the Master Alteration perk and 2 x Fortify Alteration (25) enchants, it reduces the mana cost down to 25%. (0.5 * 0.5 = 0.25)

Base mana cost is reduced by 41% at 100 Skill for any type of magic. So the mana cost for Dragonhide is 247 with Alteration perks and 100 Alteration skill. That's perfectly reasonable for a Master level spell that caps your physical mitigation for up to 1 minute.

The question is why do you need to rely on Enchanting to even be able to use spells? That doesn't make sense at all.

You don't.

I have confirmed that perks and enchanted gear stack, at least in terms of Alteration school:

Alteration Skill: 84
Paralyze Cost (base): 500
Paralyze Cost at skill: 286
Paralyze Cost with -15% Cost (Archmage Robe): 243
Paralyze Cost with Expert Perk: 143
Paralyze Cost with -15% Cost (Archmage Robe) and Expert Perk: 121
Paralyze Cost with -15% Cost (Archmage Robe) and Expert Perk and -23% Cost Ring: 88

Looks like they're stacking just fine to me.

And you don't need to rely on enchanting to cast the spell. You just need to get higher skill and/or more mana through levels and store bought gear / dropped loot. Enchanting just makes it so you don't have to spend so much time casting the lower level spells.

Unless you stack the items already in-game to get a nice decrease in mana cost, you do. And even then, why do you need to search out specialized items to be able to use spells? I can use the Wuuthrad at level 1 just fine on my mage, with my equipment making it better instead of making it useable.

No, in fact, you don't. Did you read the last couple posts by Cheshyr and I? 100 Alteration Skill and the Master Alteration perk decrease the cost of Dragonhide down to 247; no gear necessary. That's a perfectly reasonable mana cost for a Master level spell that caps your physical mitigation for up to 1 minute.

That's how it works with every type of magic. If you perk for it and raise your skill, all of the mana costs are pretty reasonable.

Edit: So a Mage should be able to use Master level spells when he's sitting at 1 Skill in that school? Wuuthrad does crap damage if your Two Handed Skill is at 1, whereas high level spells are too expensive to cast at level 1 (even if you had access to them). They're simply too different ways of linking effectiveness to Skill level. I'm sure you can find a mod to accommodate you if you think you should be able to cast Dragonhide with an Alteration Skill of 1.

You don't. Why do you think you do? Even Dragonhide, with it's cost of 837 or whatever is reduced to 503 at 100 skill. Add in the Perk, and that's 419 / 251. If you've managed to get access to a Master level spell, yet you don't have that much mana, and you can't get there with the 150 points of miscellaneous +mana items lying around in shops... then I'm not certain what to tell you.

The most expensive non-permanent spell in the game is Harmony at 1052. Perked it's 526. At 100 skill, it's 316. Seems reasonable, really. That's without a single enchantment. Even dual-cast, that's 632... and it's an 250 foot AoE Calm that lasts for a minute, and works on Creatures up to level 60 or something ridiculous. You could stop ANY fight with that spell.

All two-handed weapons do crap damage if you aren't skilled at them, so the Wuuthrad is still going to be one of the best.

I'd rather enchanting made my spells more powerful, like they do with weapons, instead of simply lowering the mana cost. Do I expect to be able to use a master-level spell at level 1? No. Do I expect to be able to use a master-level spell if I'm not proficient enough with its governing skill? No.

Do I expect to be able to use it without having to get perks? Yes. Do I expect to be able to use it without having to max out its governing skill? Yes. Do I expect to be able to use it without having to stack enchants specifically for one school of magic? Yes. Do I expect to be able to use it without pumping all my points into magicka? Yes.

Your first two posts in this thread were complaining that spells are unusable without Enchanting or wearing specialized gear. We showed you that's not true.

Now you're complaining about the method Bethesda used to limit access to the most powerful spells (sufficient Skill in the school and a handful of perks invested). As I mentioned earlier, there are mods that can address that for you. Yours is the first complaint I've ever read about this, and this board sees a lot of complaints.

They are still unusable unless you do something specific in order to cast them, whether it's by grabbing a perk, pumping an insane amount of magicka, or enchanting/wearing enchanted gear to reduce mana costs.

Warriors and Thieves suffer from no such burden. They also have enchanting, alchemy, and smithing to make their weapons better. Mages have only alchemy, with enchanting to them them usable (for the most part). You don't think that's flawed?

I was on the PS3, and I was custom enchanting 2 gears for Conjuration with all spell reduction perks taken in the Conjuration tree. They don't stack, cause my magicka went down the moment I tried to summon a beefed up storm atronach. Put on another 2 pieces of gear and the free magicka kicked in.

Chalk it up to Conjuration being gllitched or the PS3 version getting the short end of the stick?

Warriors and Thieves don't get to summon instant 80% damage reduction and blizzards out of thin air.

I don't. Warriors and Thieves can cast Novice and even some Apprentice spells in every Magic School at 1 Skill, without any perks or equipment dedicated to it.

Sure, a Mage could level his Two Handed skill to 100 and use Wuuthrad to do some decent damage, but how does that damage compare to a Warrior or Thief who Smithed his own weapon and put perks in Two Handed? By the same token, a Warrior or Thief with the requisite Skill can use Close Wounds, Reanimate Corpse, etc.

They do "stack", in that you benefit from both the perks and the enchants. They just don't interact additively. So -50% mana cost from the perks and -50% mana cost from the enchants brings your casting cost down to 25% (0.5 * 0.5 = 0.25)

Which, I should mention, isn't a bad idea. Conjuration spells are surprisingly cheap for how powerful they are. With 100 Conjuration Skill, Master Conjuration, and 2 x Fortify Conjuration (25) enchants, Summon Dremora Lords only costs 53 mana. I'm thinking it may be better to enchant Fortify Destruction x 4, Fortify Conjuration x 2, and Fortify Alteration x 2 for a pure Mage.

With no perks, and no reduction, alot of spells have costs over 1,000.

I want to seriously know, what kind of weed the developers were smoking. Cause I want some of that. I have no doubt the high they got from it was mind blowing.

Ah okay, thanks for clearing that up.