Note: this will be long

2nd Note: I havnt completed the game, though I have close to 50 hrs played

I've been playing Elder Scrolls since Morrowind, (The last truly open and free world of Elder Scrolls, the declining path all RPG games seem to be taking unfortunatly )
And I noticed the lack of Daedra, I know they were pretty heavy in Oblivion due to the main story being about one of them, and were in every Elder Scrolls to date, each had a shrine in Oblivion, but Skyrim, 4 are directly in the game, a few are mentioned, a few have temples... but.. some are completely removed.. Why is this?

I had a discussion with my friend on this topic, she was under the impression that they were not in Skyrim because its a "nordic"culture, she couldnt seem to understand the fact that Skyrim is connected to Cyrodill with people coming and going between the two provinces for the past what? 500+ years that the Empire has had an extensive influence on it? She only saw them as games.. "Oblivion, Skyrim, Morrowind" different, didnt seem to understand that you have to keep the lore between these games the same.

her direct comment: "Oblivion was all about demons, now its about dragons, thats why they are hardly mentioned, Skyrim isnt Oblivion their not the same".. Now this is disturbing to me.. while yes I can see why Deadra would take a back burner on it, just like they were in Morrowind, and other Elder Scrolls, but why eliminate them so much as in Skyrim?

The 15 Deadra were in the first Elder Scrolls, they've been in every single elder scrolls since then, not all of those stories were about the Deadra gods, they were in every one because that was part of the lore of Elder Scrolls world as a whole. Its part of the RP part of the RPG Role Playing.... Elder Scrolls is an open ended game, the main story isnt even the main concept of the Elder scrolls games in most cases, even in Skyrim the main storyline is not the main point of the game, even though it is a bigger part than in some past Elder Scrolls; exploraiton, leanring the culture, learning about the new province of Skyrim is what its about, and Role Playing your character. thats how all elder scrolls are.

We have to also remember, that this is the WORLD of Elder Scrolls, "Lore" seems to have taken a back burner itself in RPGs lately, and I've always adored Elder Scrolls for NOT doing this..

Skyrim and Cyrodill along with many other provinces are connected by roads, roads which even the NPCs hint, are used quite often. "I am from Black Marsh, moved here a year ago", or "I am visiting from, Cyrodill", etc. etc., Pale Pass which you see in both Oblivion and Skyrim connecting the two Provinces, the Empire in the lore of Morrowind has had a huge influence on Skyrim as a whole, as its shown in the game of Skyrim in many ways.

it just seems to be a hole, a missing part of the lore of Elder Scrolls which doesnt fully make sense, unless you are to go off of my friends mentality that "this is a different game, they are making elder scrolls about Dragons now and are pushing out the demons, and soon the games of Morrowind and before will be weeded out completely and all new elder scrolls about nordic and dragons"...

I for one hope to god this isnt true, If they are trying to weed out and change the lore of Elder Scrolls, it will ruin elder scrolls completely for many many fans. Whats wrong with letting the new players learn about what there is already and keep expanding on it anyway? But back on Subject.

This is just something I've noticed, and I have noticed Elder Scroll games changing, and not always for the better. The stats have gotten simpler and simpler, one example being:

Example: Morrowind had Shortsword stats, longsword stats, polearm stats, blocking stats, blunt stats, greatsword stats, etc. etc. etc.
Oblivion it was dumbed down too Blades, Blunts, etc.
Skyrim its even more dumbed down too :Single or two handed...... x.x

Many weapons have been eliminated, as well as armours, and even armour pieces,

Elder Scrolls is changing as a whole, and I want to know if my friend is right, are they eliminating the old lore of Elder Scrolls and attempting to change it? If so, why? Or is this just them being lazy by not adding them all when it would of made perfect sense too?

is Elder Scrolls changing as a whole itself as a game? Elder scrolls used to pride itself on being completely open ended, infact the developers still proclaim how open ended it is.. when in reality.. Its not...

Take Thievery for instance.. an RPG is an RPG, and shouldnt be limited.. in Morrowind you could steal a fork from someones house, or even kill a shop owner and steal all of his goods and re sell it somewhere else, anywhere you wanted... This is called Role-Playing, if you wanted to be a thief. You could, and were not hindered by limitations = Open Ended realistic world and Role-Playing

Fast forward to Oblivion: You now have to sell stolen items at "fences" because merchants dont deal in "hot items." ... Well thats great.. but lets remember the Role Playing factor here... Merchants dont Deal with hot Items on purpose... how does this merchant know I stole this fork half the province away in a random persons house? And if this merchant does know, why doesnt the guards magically know and arrest me? See? Simply makes no sense... But its there, a limitation, which shouldnt be. If a person wishes to play a thief in an RPG, and one which prides itself for open ended game-play,they should be able too, especially because they've always been unlimited in this sense in past Elder Scrolls...

The reason Bethesda gave? "People were getting filthy rich to easily by stealing and re-selling" Ok thats great Bethesda, but thats their choice as Role-Players... If thats what they want to do, let them..

Or, if that really bothers you, make stealing a bit harder? more guards patrolling? shop owners a bit smarter? You already made it so shop owners follow you into restricted areas, why limit thieving even more?

But this is just one of many limitations set on Elder Scrolls, and is my example of why I ask... is Elder Scrolls changing more and more, and are they attempting to weed out the old Lore? If so.... why? There is no reason for it...

Everything tries to apply to as many people as possible for maximum profit these days.

All Daedric Princes except Big J are in Skyrim. They don't all have shrines, though.

Lorewise, I enjoyed The Infernal City and Lord of Souls much, much more than Skyrim. I almost wish they would make an Elder Scrolls spin-off again, like Redguard and Battlespire, so they can concentrate more on an interesting story.

There's no indication anybody is trying to "weed out" any "lore" about anything. Daedra are in the game, and there are actually people hunting Daedra-worshippers. Jeez, the last game was all ABOUT a Daedra Prince's attempt to come directly to Nirn. Skyrim doesn't center on the Daedra, but they're in there.

Also, the complaints about "dumbing down" are kinda pointless. For one thing, having a skill for each weapon separately isn't particularly realistic, because that assumes learning one weapon is totally unrelated to your skill in another weapon - when in fact some weapons are similar. A warhammer and battleaxe are used in a similar fashion, and so work off a common skill. Ditto with axes, warhammers and single-hand swords.

1. All of the Princes except Jyggalag are in Skyrim. You have to hunt for their quests, you don't just show up at a shrine for a lot of them.
2. There are less minor Daedra (Dremoras, Scamps, etc.) in game because of the events of Oblivion, so this actually quite faithful to the lore.

I've found it most surprising that many creatures found in morrowind don't exist aymore in skyrim
I guess morrowind players have killed so many of them that theyve gone extinct

Yep, better to have one skill for similar fighting styles, with customization(perks etc) in them for different weapons.

Bethesda are not changing any lore at all as far as I'm aware. Sure, not all daedric princes may be present in terms of quests, but does that change the lore? I don't see how it does. If you're really so sure that they changed the lore, what exactly did they change?

Also all those different weapon stats had no practical use in the game. The game was pretty much the same no matter if you chose to use blunt weapons, axe weapons, blade weapons etc. You'd go through the same process, only the skills were named differently. And if you found a blunt weapon somewhere there's be a 90% chance it would have no use to you at all because you only happen to know how to swing big axes around, which of course means you're absolutely useless at swinging big hammers around .

And the thing about stealing is true. It would be way too easy to get rich. It already is easy to get rich. Hell, maybe the owner of a weapon might have their name inscribed in it. Better not to take the chance right?

Morrowind was not a perfect game (far from it) and bethesda is always trying to improve. Maybe sometimes they miss the mark (bandits in glass armour), but at least they're not trying to make the same game every year.

That's because Morrowind (excluding expansions) takes place on an island. It can easily be inferred that species are unique to that island just as they are in the Galapagos.

Well you can be both right - they are there (you have to do some exploring), but they are not a dominant faith or influence (just like there are a lot of Hindu's in *insert western country* but you wont necessarily see a lot of Hindu temples.


Morrowind still had some pretty major worship going on (so some dialogue told me), and adventuring around the Imperial City during a full on incursion?


And they are in it here, but not a major part (heck, after what happened in Oblivion I could understand it if it went underground a but).


That is how Skyrim is to.


How so, because the Deadra aren't prominent enough?


Lets no overreact. No demons are being pushed out and replaced by dragons. It is a different story, covering a bit of mythology. The deadra are cool but don't need to be overused. They have there major play in Oblivion.


Because there is so much lore there is a lot to explore? Why must everything be Deadra?



Huh? You talk about lore, then jump to some mechanical changes then back to lore?


Yes it is changing. It has changed from each title.


Yes it is changing mechanically (and as much as I love Morrowind lord knows I don't want to be playing TES 8 or 5 and still using Morrowind mechanics) and no they aren't attempting to weed out the old lore and your argument for why you think they might be isn't... convincing I guess.

They are pretty different locations, the creatures found in the US deep south don't necessarily exist in Canada.

As a proud member of the Gratuitous Guar Guild, I wish there were Guars in Skyrim. Surely a Dunmer brought one with him?

I disagree with lore taking a backburner. Skyrim does a much, much better job of including and staying consistent with TES lore than Oblivion did, and even Morrowind. In Morrowind you had the lore in books mostly, but in Skyrim there are actually a lot of tangible tie-ins with the previous lore in the form of side quests and certain artifacts that you might not expect to make return appearances.

But about the daedra, yeah I was also surprised and disappointed to see that the only daedra creatures to make return appearances are the atronachs and dremora (and even the dremora are incredibly rare outside of summons). I was really hoping to see scamps, clannfears, daedroths, and golden saints again, and maybe even winged twilights/dark seducers or ogrims.

Skyrim being a different culture has nothing to do with the Daedra, the Daedra aren't natives of this world, they come from Oblivion and can be seen in any part of Tamriel. I think maybe the devs thought that axing the daedra would be balanced by all the new monsters they introduced (ice wraiths, giants/mammoths, falmer, wisp mothers, etc.) But every other game introduced new monsters but kept the daedra too. Like in Morrowind, we had Morrowind-specific monsters like cliff racers, nix hounds, kagouti, etc. but the daedra were still there.

Not only do I miss the daedra for finding and encountering, but for summoning too. The atronachs were always my least favorite summons. I preferred summoning clannfears or daedroths instead.

Yes, the games have changed from each title, but the changes were never nearly as drastic as from Oblivion to Skyrim. I'm not saying the changes were all bad, but I do think these changes have brought the series more into the mainstream and made it more similar to other popular games, and took away some of the aspects that made the series unique.

First thanks for pointing out some of those things guys, I didnt realize that most of them were in-fact in Skyrim *boots up Skyrim* guess I'll have to search harder <3,



I was asking if they were weeding out Deadra as it seemed that they were, but if most of them are in Skyrim, then I guess my question is answered, no they are not I wasnt stating that they were changing the lore, I was simply showing my reasons for asking if they were.


I would like to point out though, that skills imo for each weapon type makes alot of sense, if you were to "master" it. For instance..

Swinging a dagger, and swinging a longsword are not entirely different in and of itself, any beginner under the sun can swing both and hit their target... however.. to again "master" this, to get the most out of each swing, to hit a moving dodging target more efficiently, and cause the most damage without letting yourself be open, is entirely different. Let me put two real life situations into effect....

I know a person who is trained quite extensively in "daggers", he can throw, use, and is very lethal in a fight with short bladed weapons like daggers, he was trained due to the type of security he does. (this is all I can say on that matter.) Now he can do alot more with daggers than me, and if he was suddenly dropped into the world of elder scrolls, he'd probably use daggers and get quite far with them, but wouldnt be able to use longswords nearly as effectively. There is a weight ratio which is directly correlated to how you swing, move, slice, with weapons of different blade lengths. Anyone who has studied sword-play will know that there are good and bad ways to fight with a sword, and these good/bad ways can differ greatly due to weapon type, and blade length, as well as how you swing, balance your weight for the optimum force behind the said swing, etc.

I can understand there being no difference between short and longswords, they are all in all, the same, the difference in blade length and weight are minimal enough, The difference between a 2-handed hammer, and a 2-handed axe are again, minimal, and could be combined together, but Daggers and longswords are entirely different worlds of not only fighting, but balancing, and controlling them in a fight. I agree that they need to remove what doesnt make sense, and fix it, but why dumb it down to such an extent, when just combining the few that could be combined would work just as well?

Why remove what DOES work to get rid of what doesnt? Seems to be somewhat backwards mentality, but its what they did.



Your forgetting the paragraph of mine about open ended role-playing. A person who wishes to enjoy being a thief should not be limited in a game that strives to be as open ended and RPG elemented as possible, over a player who wishes to dungeon crawl. That is their choice. Its like removing a mechanic in a game that works, just because some players abuse it, and then whine about it after abusing it and using it how its not meant to be used. Thats their problem, and their fault they abused it and ruined their own gaming experience. The developers are not their parents to slap them on the wrist and change the game to suit their own abusemant of a mechanic which works, nor should the developers do it, but they do. In a world as 100% open ended as Morrowind, which Elder scrolls strives and boasts about, its sad to see it taking a turn to limited play in some aspects, such as thievery.

To point out, the "name inscription" makes sense, and as I stated, why not just add more guards, or a mechanic which DOES make sense, instead of destroying that part of the open end type of play? and ruining it for those who wish to be a crafty thief and RP as that? Make it so some items, armours, and rare pieces which are unique are recognized by all shop owners as not yours, but stolen? A good idea, which wouldnt of broken the thievery type of RP that some like to play as.

I don't even consider Skyrim part of TES. The game was dragon age 2ed to me. ( DA2 svcked compared to DAO, they just cashed in on the success of origins ).

This is how RPGs are going to be cross platform now sadly. Its like what Blizzard did to WOW with cataclysm.

Nah, the Argonians liberated them and now they are living it up in the Telvanni mushroom towers.

Quantum Cuttlefish

You really broke my Paragraph into such tiny pieces you lost track of the whole picture. I was merely asking if this was the case, if they were trying to weed it out? or if I was wrong and missing something, which the other gracious players have shown me, I was missing something.

I did go to mechanics a bit when discussing the changes taking place (because if they were weeding out the lore, well, that'd be a big change too wouldnt it?) it ties together.

and while yes you said my reasons were not "convincing", I was not trying to convince anyone, but point out at things which could be possible "hints" at what I was questioning, as possible proof, which of course, again players have shown that I was missing key elements.

Try not to break someones paragraphs up so much that you take them out of context, and miss the big picture.

Speaking of Telvanni... If anyone has *Spoiler* found the shipwreck with the diary/book discussing the fall of Telvanni House (and other Houses), and the apparent war that happend, etc. while we were messing around in Cyrodill*End Spoiler* Made me want to go back to Morrowind and see how its changed in the 400+ years of our absence. Would be interesting really. Granted they probably wont make a "Morrowind 2" for lack of a better name, but would be fun honestly to see how its changed, seeing old mines, etc. exactly as they were, just slightly different, or ones caved in with new ones having been formed due to rock slides, and just people making them or stumbling upon them when mining, heck, even new Shrines, and Burial sites of new big families that have popped up. I think it would be fun.

I hate the phrase "dumbed down". (Can you tell?)

In the case of weaponry, it's far more an animation thing than any sinister desire on the part of Bethesda to sell the game to the people you're all so dreadfully afraid of. If you'll go back to OB and take a gander at the weapon animations, the ones for Blunt and Blade were - guess what - all pretty similar. Skyrim throws new animations into the mix, but swinging a greatsword is not all that different from swinging a battleaxe or warhammer.

Animation has obviously not been Bethesda's strong suit. The weapon animations in Morrowind were all dreadfully primitive. I'm all for re-adding spears, polearms and the like back, but only if it's a viable option in-game, and if the animations aren't just "poke poke poke poke".

I'm even in favor of nixing some weapons. Unless I'm totally misremembering, Daggerfall didn't even have Crossbows. Only Morrowind did. The overly Asian weapons were much too common, too - the Akaviri brought them over, but you shouldn't have been tripping over katanas, wakizashis, and throwing stars all over the place.

Well that's just not right.

The series may change somewhat throughout time, but I would expect some of that as the area in which the game takes place changes. I think Bethesda has always done a nice job of taking a familiar concept and expanding upon it, but it could risk of becoming a little old hat were, for example, future games to feature the same style of quests and equipment in each. I'm glad that Skyrim still has the books, lore, races, and feel of the elder scrolls series without feeling the need to fit into certain parameters established by a previous game.

I have trained in the bo staff and fencing, however I've hardly trained in other pole-type weapons but I can use a spear almost as well as the Bo staff because of my training, so it's acceptable if they mush certain skills together.
You can still find some daedra in the game, at Mehrune's shrine and via conjuring a Daedra Lord.
The whole fence thing works for me, when someone breaks into a home and robs them, the owner calls the police and tells em what was taken(and guards in Skyrim seem to have x-ray vision as to what you're carrying, because they always know of my Daedric artifacts) and if you see a man with a van on the street trying to sell stuff at a low price, most people wouldn't buy it, he'd need a fence, these guys exist in Life, so why not in Cyrodiil.
I've found that carrying a stolen item eventual looses the Stolen tag after a few days as I've pilfered alot of soul gems and I no longer have any that say "Stolen"

WoW was sinking long before cataclysm on most servers also if my memory is right i don't think deadra where in arena at all outside a few undefined quest references they where mainly fleshed out in daggerfall.

I think Skyrim has loads of lore, far more so than Oblivion did. Wasn't the whole point of closing the gates of oblivion permanently to prevent any great number of Daedra getting through? So they can now only be summoned, not enter on their own? Makes sense there are far less of them about.

Not a lore buff in the slightest though so, I may well be wrong. :b

Skyrim Had MASSIVE Lore Refernces! We evn get to visit The Orginal Captial of the ancient Nords!