ok im reposting a post, hoep thats in the rules but wanted to see if anyone agreed or disagreed and maybe coem up with a solution that can be an improvement.



I like the perks, I think they did good with them, do the offer the exact same thing as ..they offer the meat but peoe are argueing that that attribute do offer more rp value and I show some examples.

Ok lets say u roll a mage that has maxed out int and wisdom. Ok yes the perks cover the amount of mana, the speed in which magic regens and sta regens..wait so to get the sta Regen I gotta either use an enchant, wear lihht armor, or use a potion. What if I dont wear la, then I cant be a speedy lil mage running away constantly because to get the same effect I would have to use perks from la in which my mage dosent use. Also the mage is maxxed out in str because he likes to carry alot of stiff, think that hes muscular, be able to get that extra umph in his enchanted dagger he pulls out when the [censored] hits the fan and to prevent staggering or getting knotcked down. Well the extra carrying weight thats covered in the new lvling system but to get the stagger my mage would have to be wearing heavy armor, to get the extra umph that str woulda included into his dagger he would have to be maxxed out in one handed to benefit whereas nefore he could of had a low score seeing its brought ouy in rare situations, but now instead of just being strong he have to be a one handed blade master.

Like I said I like the perks for reg aying, but for rp purposes, they are severly getting limited in how they can play or function and thats why i feel alot of peopel are complaining.

Hopes this clear up some things. And yes I uses oblivions atributes scale since that was most recent before, dont shot me lol

Here is another big reason for the nerd rage. When a developer insists that your complaint is something that it's not.

For instance, Bioware. They said "yeah, we hear you, DA2 had some things you'd like done differently" . Companion armor. YES will be in the next DA
Then they went and showed how you can CHANGE THE COLOR of the companion gear, but you're not really changing the armor. ROFL. Then they said "This is important because LOOK AT ALL THE COSPLAY OUTFITS FOR DA! HURRR DURRRRR"

I mean, talk about being completely out of touch. Bioware lost one of their primary DA guys. His blog covers the story pretty well. He worked his life away on DAO, then DA2 came around and he was like, "uhh, guys, this isn't what we started with DA" and Bioware said "HURRRR DURRRR MA$$ EFFECT $AYs HELLO!"

So he quit. Then DA2 was a huge flop with most DAO fans.

Skyrim is no flop, not by a long shot, but I fear the developers are doing this selective listening thing.

"We hear you, stats were not handled right in Morriwind/Oblivion. WE FIXED IT BY REMOVING STATS!". Completely not what we asked for.

We asked for better combat, we got the response of

"Yeah, we hear you, better combat. Well check this out SMACKDOWN vs. RAW KILL CAM SUPPLEX!!!!! Less weapon choices, no medium armor!!:

Perks can't replace Attributes unfortunately. Perks can go hand in hand with Attributes but you can't do only perks. Skyrim's attributes (Red, Green and Blue) are about as relevant as the choices at the end of Mass Effect 3. Not to mention that attributes help determine a characters strengths and helps dramatically in roleplaying, otherwise all the characters are going to be the same minues the perk choices but even then the perk choices are horrible for the most part.

I really regret being for attributes being removed in Skyrim, won't make that mistake again.

The Perks are being used as an excuse rather than an Addition, thats my issue with them. I expected Rewards, not single track static necessities if I don't want to rip my hair out or feel as if I'm self gimping. I'm not looking for Attributes exactly as they were in past games. but some folks just can't read past the word attributes without flipping their Tops and trumpeting, how revolutionary Perks are when they really aren't in any sense of the word.

a System consisting of a Revamped Attribute System, Skills as well and Perks would have been far superior to any TES game Character customization/development to Date, and would have been unbridled in the options it afforded the players.

But of course this Topic is beaten to Dust, I don't see it proceeding well.

They are not trying to satisfy a small group of gamers with very selective taste, they are trying to sell the games to the masse. They will NEVER take the risk of alienating their main audience (people that barely can read and write) to satisfy people who want something refined and complex.

Option a): kill cam, takes 100 h to program
Option b ): game balance and depth, takes 1000+ h to achieve.

Option a) sells the game, option b ) does not. You do the math.

Actually, the attributes would probably have enhanced the perks. I don't mind the lack of them in Skyrim, I just prefer attributes in general. They have been in every RPG I played, even the ones that didn't have traditional leveling like Shadowrun for the Genesis or maybe Final Fantasy 8(okay, that one did, but the game obviously encouraged staying at as low a level as possible for some reason, but this was probably a side effect of the easy to break junction system.) and even Ultima 7's anti-leveling grinding leveling still had the attributes. I hope the next game returns attributes as they are actually useful. They aren't just great for Role Play, they are great for power gamers, minmaxers, and people who find them easy to understand the power of a character. Imagine playing say, Dynasty Warriors. The stats on each character tells you the poweress and strengths of a character in a more concise way.

In fact, try to imagine playing Fallout 2, 3, or New Vegas without attributes. You won't know what your character is good at in an easier to understand way. Maybe I feel numbers help in knowing the strengths of a character because I grew up on reading the stats for my Pokemon and seeing which one was better for a battle. If Pokemon didn't have stats, no one would know Magikarp could be a tough nut to crack if you train it right. No one would know Donphan is a tank when trained right.

I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong in saying whatever about stats. I'm just saying they help in telling a character's strengths and weaknesses in a concise manner.

Fallout's attributes are pretty static. Your starting values mean a lot more than they ever did in TES, where that +10 strength your Nord gets can be matched by some Wood Elf who whacked rats in various ways for two levels. You can raise them in Fallout but it takes sacrifing perks for it, where in TES you just become Godly by default.

If you want attributes back make them mean something. If it's in the traditional TES way, I prefer Skyrim.

Attributes we horribly handled in MW and Ob because they could be maxed out. Fallout does a much better job of it with SPECIAL. You start off with real strengths and limitations that define your character. Over the course of the game you can adjust your character's attributes but you never go through the "weak, unhealthy idiot" to "mighty, hale, genius" that you had with past TES games. Interestingly, Oblivion was pretty easy to tweak to create a SPECIAL kind of attribute system, which I did n fact do. It worked great. No attributes at all = no ability to mod, so such a thing is out in Skyrim.

I have to agree with this, Attributes would be much better coming back similar to Fallout with the ability to raise one of them every 5-10 levels.

This.

About the RP part, I feel strongly that good dialogue options are absolutely vital to RPing. Neither Oblivion nor Skyrim had good dialogue options at all, but at least Oblivion had a way to persuade characters.

Okay, the Fallout example might have been a bad one, but in Fallout 2, the non-custom character you choose has starting stats that tell you how good the character is at something. The stats do mean something in that game, as well. Also, Skyrim sort of doesn't break you get to god hood at *insert level here* thing. It isn't as obvious, but you become way too good like in the other games. Morrowind is a huge offender of the too good by certain level problem, but this can depend on how you play the character. Daggerfall had a pretty good way of doing things, though. You only got 5 points to use per level and the leveling was slow. Maybe making the leveling a bit slower could make things better if such a system was done right. No copying Daggerfall's slowness, just making leveling much slower than it was in Morrowind and Oblivion. Make the stats go up slower so each increase means something.

Have a cap for levels that is much larger for the skill levels and make more skills if needed. A slow leveling system may sound worse, but it actually would decrease what you hate, which is making the character too powerful too early.

I have to disagree I dont believe that it would have actually taken very long to incorporate the atributes and balance into the games. Hell most of the rules were written long ago and they work. Fire does extra dmg to undead hell has been around longer than the first ff game, I dare say all the way back to tolken. They could have uzed the same small amount of mobs and threw stats on them and call it a day.ow ya, they alrdy got the health, sta, and magic down wouldnt take long the cober the atributes.

Now I know they was trying to get rid of the end game god mode, but still failed at that. Instead of our charector can be a master at everything, we have no matter what I chose if im good I can still wtfpwn the game. Again I think that was a wrong thing to gst rid of and ill explain why. To get to that point, u had to lvl up everything meaning that it was a consious decision to be a master at everything, do I play like that? No, but the option was there if I ever chose to.

You can still achieve game balance and depth while still being "hurr durr."

I would love it, if they had used the current system with more attributes. That said, making attributes independent of the skills, like they are now and give you a fixed amount of points to put into them the way you want to.

Actually, I absolutely adored the way the attribute system worked in older TES games, especially MW.

Yes, you could max them all out, but only after hundreds of hours of gameplay. It offered a sense of real progression not present in other games of its type.
I still remember the first time I was able to best a guard, after spending all the early levels being absolutely torn apart by those guys. And then when you hit level 35, with your STR, END, SPD and AGL all beefed up, you were an unstoppable storm of sheer force.

That...Thats what accomplishment feels like gentlemen.