This.

-HD

Again you are COMPLETELY missing the point. Karma is not about law or what is legal, it is about your impact on others. The idea is that you lose Karma if you do something that harms your fellow man. Now obviously stealing is morally wrong and I'm not saying that if you kill anyone in the game then you should be free to take anything without incurring further karma penalties. What I am saying is that if the game has decided that it morally acceptable to kill someone, it should also be morally acceptable to take their stuff. I honestly don't understand why you can't grasp this concept.

I'll give you the most simple example I can think of, if you can't understand this you are a lost cause.

There is a man with two hats, he is wearing one hat, while the other hat is on his table. With the logic of this game, you would be a better human being if you picked up the hat on the table than if you murdered the man for the hat on his head. These are not two separate issues, the harm you are causing is affecting the same person, therefore the karma should be consistent.

Just to clear something up here as well, there are some people confusing the issue saying that if you kill someone then you should be able to take their stuff without losing karma. That is NOT what I'm suggesting. If you kill someone that the game decides is worth deducting karma points for then you should also lose karma for any other act that would harm that person whether they are alive or dead. It should NOT be ok to break into someone's house and take their stuff because you had previously murdered them.




Right...so your not going to steal someone's stuff just because they are angry with you, but you're fine with shooting them? You don't think that is inconsistent? If you were a religious person then you'd be confused if you were sent to hell because you slaughtered 500 ex convicts? You'd be standing outside the pearly gates shouting "But I didn't take any of their stuff?"

Again, just to make this absolutely crystal clear, I'm not suggesting that all theft in the game should have no karma penalty, I'm saying that the karma penalty should be consistent. It should either be ok to harm someone or not ok whatever form that harm takes. At no point should the game be suggesting that murder is more acceptable than theft.




Not true at all. All of the items in the game are tagged with owners. It works the other way around, when factions start to like you then the karma penalty is removed from taking their stuff. The logic being that they wouldn't mind you having it. With this being the case it should be quite simple to add the reverse, where the karma penalty is removed when a faction becomes hostile.

For the sake of balance and logic I'd suggest the mod should swap the conditions around completely. You shouldn't receive a karma penalty for stealing from your enemy, and you should lose karma for stealing from your friends. I dislike the fact that you can take everything an NPC owns just because they like you just as much as I dislike the fact that you can't take items from an NPC the game told you it was fine to kill.

Want to clarify a couple of points here, as some people are agreeing with me while not understanding what I'm suggesting. For example:



This is NOT what I'm suggesting. Whether the person is dead or whether you are seen is irrelevant, Karma is about what is morally right, not about whether or not you are caught.



This is what I am suggesting. Obviously this is a very simplistic view of quite a complicated philosophical argument but it is by far the most logical. consistent and balanced option available within the limitations of the games engine. When I say balanced I mean in the sense that if you just changed it so stealing from hostiles was ok then it would basically mean you could steal anything, which is not what I'm after.

Okay, but this affects how they treat you, so are they reading my soul?

Also I got the same thing I walked on some PG and they were not "red". He turned around and said "Get out of here!" then turned red and started shooting me. This gained me karma :\

Gata address this her... Rather augment it. If the person is of a neutral or friendly background, then yes, you would be better off stealing the hat on the table. However, if he's of an evil faction [legion, powders], you'd actually get off scotch free for shooting him in the face and taking his hat from him (or gain karma even), but you would incure a karmatic penalty for touching his hat and letting him live.

Also, i think being dead would be ever so slightly more inconvenient then missing my favorite hat...

Edit after posts:


The only way to do this, from my knowledge, is to set the object to unowned. Which btw would mean you could openly just take whatever you wanted and nobody (not even them) would care. And you'd have to edit each object manually ontop of that. I'm not scripter, but i have a minor background. Correct me if i'm wrong though.

Maybe they have a "sense evil" ability, lol. Then again, you have to think of it in perspective; if whatever your karma is wouldn't have any effect at all on the gameplay, then having a karma system would be completely unnecessary. Ofc, you can argue that it IS an unnecessary accessory in the game, but it plays its role by making you think; is it worth stealing this item even if I will turn towards evil if I do? Otherwise you could just run around and plunder and [censored] and still be loved like a saint.



I dun really see why it is a problem to set them to unowned? You still can't openly take the items in front of them, since if they are a hostile faction, they will kill you if they see you. The effect are still the same; you will not lose karma for stealing in enemy territory.

The problem with setting them to unowned is that you could steal it with no penalty even if the owner wasn't hostile. It would just remove the karma penalty completely from stealing. But as I have already pointed out, this is not the only way to do it, the game already has contextual karma. If you become friendly with a faction then the karma penalty is removed from everything they own. There should be no problem using this same function to do the same when you become hated.

I'm not much of a scripter (as I have no knowledge at all about it), but isn't it possible to make it somehow so that the faction of the items change from owned to unowned depending on if the faction is hostile or not? But if you say that there are other ways to achieve the same result, I hardly see the point of debating about it, as long as the same effect can be achieved

The real issue is that they arnt even hostile until they discover you... I'm vilified with legion but i can walk right up to them, render a cheery salute, and stroll on by... Guess its okay i've killed hundreds of them... happens alot i guess.

Not only is that not the real issue, it has absolutely nothing to do with what this proposed mod would change.

you'd be able to steal hordes of loot with no reprisal or consequence... hows that not an issue? They arnt attached to the object so they would respond when you took it...

Whatever, if thats how you want it though fine. Seems even more broken to me, since stealing is such a negligible amount of karma loss... just a bunch of "awe man" factor...

That's not an issue because I'm not suggesting having unowned items or removing the karma penalty for factions which aren't hostile, therefore this situation would never happen.

Honestly if a bunch of NCR guys open up on me and i fill them up with lead i don't think there is anything bad morally about taking their [censored] especially after they attacked me.

I have actually been considering making a mod on this. I had posted about it in a thread on general discussion.
The idea is focused around who you are allied with.

As an ally of Good Springs, you gain a karmic bonus for killing/stealing from the Powder Gangers and convicts as they are enemies of Good Springs. Karmic bonus for killing/stealing from Powder Gangers, convicts, all raider groups, Legion, ghouls and super mutants when allied with NCR.

You lose karma when stealing from an group you are allied with as in your heart you are stealing from an ally. According to Dante's Inferno the lowest ring of hell is reserved for traitors.

Killing/stealing from groups that are not enemies of your allies, ie legion when allied with good springs, then you are karmicly neutral.

This is a much easier concept than any kind of situational anolyzer and much more precise than just making it ok or bad to steal anything. Far from perfect and I still do plan to revise the concept as I work on it but I think it has potential.

Huh? I fail to see your logic there. The point is that it should not be any consequences from stealing of a hostile faction. One solution to this would be to make objects belonging to hostile factions unowned. They don't need to respond towards the fact that you are stealing from them, cuz they will still try to kill you on sight w/e you do. So as long as you do not get detected, you will not face any "reprisal or consequence" for stealing from them. How is that Not fair?

Right...really enough of this pointless debate. Here is the mod I'm requesting -

- Add a Karma penalty to stealing from friendly factions
- Remove the Karma penalty from stealing from hostile factions

Simple as that, if you want anything more complex start a new thread.

The OP did ask him to argue his case though.

Anyway, the way I see it stealing from the dead shouldn't effect your karma.
Steal from the living and you'll make their lives worse, if they're dead then it won't have an effect on them.

I don't rely Karma on law, since there's no single ruler over New Vegas, and my character believes whatever I want him to believe so I can't force him/her into any known religious or philosophcal thoughts on morality.
But it's a game mechanic that makes the game better so I'm going to play by it's rules.

If we assume that the games karma is built upon "normal" real life morality any attack on anyone should give you negative karma as long as it's not in self defence, since no one is forcing you to complete their quests.

Although the fact that you don't loose karma by killing enemies is there so you're not forced into being evil since the game can't (maintaining a stable level of fun) be beaten without killing.

My question was rhetorical, I was pointing out the absurdity of trying to argue that theft should be considered more evil than murder.

As for stealing from the dead, what planet are you on? If someone had a heart attack in the street then you'd have a clear concience after stealing his wallet? I hate to break it to you but you might want to book some psychiatric help....you're a sociopath.

As I have said several times in a variety of different ways. This idea is not about making the game more realistic (how could it be, it's based on a fictional concept) it is about making the penalties logical. You should either lose karma for harming an NPC or not. The current penalties make no sense. You can't kill an ally but you can steal everything they own, while you can kill an enemy but your not allowed to touch their stuff.

Whoa, what's with the personal attacks?

If I'm fighting for my life in post apocalyptic america then yes, I would steal the dead persons stuff. Same thing goes for the real world. If I find myself wandering around a deep forest and I've been doing so for several days and find a cabin, walk in and the guy who lives there is dead, I'll eat his food, I'll drink his water and I'll take his boots if mine are broken. If he's alive, I'll beg him to help me out?

So take it easy and stop with the attitude.

Or to put it in far simpler terms...

Apparently the looting code is bugged at the moment. Generally speaking, the ownership flag doesn't seem to be applied correctly since objects aren't registering to the fact that their owner is dead like in previous Bethesda games (and even Fallout 1 and 2.) Rather it's counting the faction as the owner.

I see that as far more plausible given the inconsistancies I've run across in the game (sometimes it works, other times it doesn't) than Obsidian actually trying to apply morality to stealing (how *DO* you steal from a dead guy?) stuff when the owner no longer exists.

There are a lot of bugs like this with some of the factions scattered about. The Goodpsprings gas station is a good example. You can loot everything in there without karma loss, EXCEPT the two boxes of 9mm ammo.

That makes sense, the ammo belongs to Ringo who carries a 9mm. Stealing from Ringo lowers your karma. What doesn't make sense is why almost all the loot in the world has no faction whatsoever, but often lowers karma. It's like the default setting is that unless ownership is "playerfaction", looting's bad.

i second this request. vanilla's settings are illogical

I found an unpopulated water pump station where everything had ownership set to SOMETHING. Even using the lockers as a place to store loot results in my losing Karma... doesn't matter for me though as I'm trying to maintain a neutral character which is quite challenging.

That is exactly what Obsidian AND Bethesda tried to do, it was the same in Fallout 3. You might want to look up Karma in the dictionary. And as with the guy above, if you are confused why looting the dead is immoral you might want to book an appointment with a mental health worker.





No one being there doesn't mean no one lives there or that the stuff doesn't belong to someone.

It won't require NVSE. I've got a proof of concept for the prison I'll put up in a bit.