Hello there! (and sorry for my possibly imperfect english!)

While reading PV13 forums I realised that I'm not the only one who dreams about - let's call it - "hardcoe" mode/server(s)/world(s)/etc. in FOOL. We're certainely not in the majority, 'cuz, well, majority of players won't ever come to forums, won't discuss 'bout the game, won't expect this or that MUST be included in the game and would like to have a kind of "standard" mmorpg experience with FOOL. But still, it seems that there is a large group of people who, just like me, would like to enjoy the game in a non-casual, non-userfriendly, a bit hard, and very role-playin'ish manner.

So, in this thread I'd like us to discuss possible features of this game mode and ask nicely our fellow developers to consider including such a beautiful option in their game. Please, gamesas, please!:D

Here's what I understand under "hardcoe" mode name:

Characters
Full PvP - no restrictions on PvP; if I want to shoot other character I can try, 'cuz... why not?
Minimal HP increase upon leveling - skills may improve, some physical attributes too, but "bullet resistance" certainly shouldn't. With this feature ganking on newbies by high level characters wouldn't be a problem.
Death with serious penalties - because drawing out a gun should be a serious thing, you want to harm someone then you also risk your own characters life. Fully lootable bodies included.

Economy
Survival - the basis of economy is need. Some simple system of hunger and thirst would be welcomed.
Finite amount of recources - to avoid situation in which everyone has Power Armor and Plasma Rifle. Items respawning should still occur to support scavenging and counterbalance players quits from game.
No NPC vendors - good system of player to player interacions should allow them to be merchants themselves if they want to.
Maybe even no NPCs at all - only wild creatures; this mode could be a huge sand-box where everybody is trying to do what they would like to do in a post-apocalyptic world. Be raider, merc, vendor, hunter, and so on. "Quests" would occur on their own.

Allrighty, it's gettin' late and I'm just one man - more points shall be added. Consider this thread as a brainstorm about kind of role-playin' sand-box mode of FOOL. Like the idea? What would you add, remove?

Your post seems very well intentioned so I'll try not to blow up at you, but it's been stated and restated that there will not mode, and the game will not be "hardcoe" or "super realistic".

Check the official FAQ, it's right there.

I'm sorry, and Chris is sorry to, because he'd like to give you all a hardcoe server, but it's pretty much not going to happen. Probably because that would require them to develop and balance two different games at once with one team, and that's a juggling act no developing team should have to do.

So don't be cruel to the dev team. You're breaking their little gamer hearts asking for all these things they can't give you.

Funny, when I read what Chris wrote it sounds like if he had the resources he would love to do it. That is far cry from never going to happen. So quit crapping on people's dreams. Thank you very much. Chris, just for the record I would be willing to pay a lot more for a hardcoe game. I bet other hardcoes would be willing to pay more also. More money for a stripped down game sounds like it could make some economic sense to me. I will play whatever you put out of course.

Oooh, so that's what they mean when they say "blind optimism."

Don't know why it is blind. The thing is technically possible, and there is interest both from (admittedly a minority but a passionate minority of) players and even the devs. If resources are the limiting factor then let's put a number on it and add it into the production queue. Even if it isn't available at launch, once the big bucks start rolling in include it as an expansion and charge a high price for the privilege of playing on it. BINGO

the problem with this idea, is it makes it too easy for players to deny other players fun. I understand where you are comming from, and I love some of your ideas, but people svck. No matter what you do to try to stop them, there will ALWAYS be sirnoobslayer waiting to kill you if you have full pvp and loot bodies. You can try to reduce the impact of such.. lets call it "dikeery" but you can never eliminate it. This would make the game literally unplayable to a VAST majority, making the game nearly unsellable. On that note, I definately support most of your other ideas and DEFINATELY encourage everyone to continue posting your idea... thats what these forums are about right?

Well, I agree wholeheartedly with Gustyrill - it seems to be tottaly doable and there is definatelly a demand for such a game mode. And it's not like "developing and balancing two different games at once" imo. Sure, as a simple player I don't have full view on that matter, but don't one-man modder "teams" often execute comparable projects on their own? All is needed are simple tweaks - little change here, little change there.

About griefers and noobslayers
The solution is to make this mode really "hardcoe". Minimal HP differences between high and low level characters, limited amount of possible respawns after death and very hostile and dangerous non-player environment would make it risky to play this way and would force "griefers" to organise - it is where roleplayin' begins.

OK, so we had a little conversation about "it's not gonna happen". Maybe that's true or maybe someone up there will change his/her mind, who knows...?
Any ideas on features of "hardcoe" mode?

Characters:
1. Because full pvp worked so well for Ultima Online
2. If done right, not a bad idea to hash out
3. Again, because it worked out so well for Ulitma Online

Economy:
1. Eh, as long as it doesn't make a slave out of the player
2. Sort of. I think a better solution would be item decay and all equipment would have to be player made except for cheapo, basic stuff.
3. Totally agree, see previous.
4. Sandbox is good for a place to put all of the quests in, but no quests at all did not work out so well for SWG. Things became very dull after killing a womp rat for the millionth time just to hit the next level. Fallout has the setup to provide a rich playing experience with a karma system. Throw in quests with different ways to complete it for karma changes, along with a sandbox to just go hunting where killing different npcs would have an effect on karma and faction standing, plus the ability to just explore and scavenge the wastes with no recognizable artificial boundaries (mountains, impassable ruins) and you have an open game with lots to do.

If this game is going to be based on PvE, then were going to have to see noticeable differences in health as we go up in levels. Also 1. Without much health increase the E. In S.P.E.C.I.A.L.will definitely suffer. 2. Contributing more to a fight involves being a higher level; furthermore pvp is consentual so if you don't want your ass kicked.. It won't need to be. I am all for the option of hardcoe mode, but it would take much more than a bit of mod work because it would require alteration of the special system, and that's just blind optimism. Blind optimism is hoping for something that can't/won't happen. Well I guess we're just a couple of problem solvers

I dunno how it worked in Ultima Online, 'cuz I didn't play it unfortunatelly. But after reading this forums I see two things: peple who are for full PvP enjoyed system of UO and people who are against such an idea hated it. The thing is that both game modes would please both groups.

I have nothing against quest. Still I'd like "hardcoe" mode to encourage player to player interactions mostly. Fights between raiders, caravans, hunting/scavenging groups, boxing tournaments etc. - all organised by players themselves.

Why is that?

And you drew a very general conclusion - "it would take much more than a bit of mod work" - from one insufficient premise - "the E. in S.P.E.C.I.A.L. will definietely suffer", so "hardcoe" mode "would require alternation of the special system". They're already adapting S.P.E.C.I.A.L. for FOOL and possible tweaks in it for the sake of "hardcoe" mode would be comparable to modding work.

I have my doubts about a too realistic game doability.

I mean, you have internet connections, lag and such.. and what is more improtant is, people will log in to have fun.

If a play logs in to be griefed or killed by bugs or dc or another reason, that wont be fun, player will stop logging in, player goes away to another game.

well if a server where to be a hardcoe server and a pvp server i wouldn't like to wander off in the wasteland and have my head blown off by some random guy will doing a quest jute because he didn't like the look of me (mostly in real life a bullet to the head is enough to kill you)

So wear a helmet... Sounds like a good thing to do in a wasteland full of raiders and Supermutants and other peeps who aren't going to be your friend and don't care what your politics and religion are.

Playin' on "hardcoe" serv would be consensual (trendy word in these forums). And maybe FOOL isn't quite a game for you, 'cuz well, as Gustyrill noted, wasteland is supposed to be the place where people shoot at you for even less than your look.

Oh, are you a game developer? Well I guess we're just a couple of problem solvers

No, I'm not. Why?

Some people don't like pvp, some do. Generally speaking, pvp crowds are usually much smaller in number. If EvE pvpers are the minority, and that game was built for pvp. If the game is designed to support solid pvp (whether consensual or not) then as the populations grow, they can open a pvp server.

I'm just saying if you worked a lot for you gear and you decide to take a stroll in the wasteland
(not the smartest thing to do)
and you get ambushed i understand it's awesome for the guys ambushing you
(heck even ill do it)
but that guy who worked hours for that gear and loss it all in less then a minute it really must svck
But i guess that's what make fallout fun you never know what will be out there waiting for you
in the wasteland

p.s A sniper bullet can easily trans pass a combat helmet now i don't know about a power armor helmet

I might be the only person to ever say this in this topic, but I REALLY don't like alot of realism in my video games.Why bother gaining lvls even if its always 1 shot, 1 kill? why bother with any lvl gaining system at all? Thats not very realistic at all (aside from TINY skill boosts). Plus I don't want to be forced to wear a helmet! They are all ugly, I wanna see my cool face, some sunglasses and a decent fedora! Something I always wished I could do in the original fallout 1+2+tactics...... I don't care if its realistic, its awesome. Fun and game balance should always be a million times more important than realism.

A lot of this was answered in the FAQ update recently. Full loot pvp won't be happening on normal servers. So unless this discussion is about the dream opportunity of a specific full loot pvp server, then it's kind of moot.