It's all over the place.

This is very interesting - and I had done this quest. Do you consider fallout.wikia.com to be the canon I keep seeing mentioned here? I need to learn it...it will help. I wanted the BOS to ally with NCR but my game isn't finished so I haven't gone there yet. Also, I can think of all kinds of directions for the story to go in a Fallout4 that could involve these two factions again. Thanks.

Fallout wiki is not canon in itself but it's good at documenting the canon.

That was what I meant...the best source to find the canon. Thanks.

I just want to say....Caesars Legion is not freaking Spartan. Spartan have philosophy, culture and most importantly, respect for women.

That's all.

Only if.

I really want to have someone explain to me how can CL be anything but black.

Possible spoilers!!!!

Slavery = black
Extermination of your allies after the war = black
Subjugation/enslavement/constant r@pe of women = black
decimation of underperforming forces = black
total ruthless dictatorship = black
forcing people to stay sick when meds are available = black

Possible perks + counter points all rolled up into one.

I am quoting someone whose sn i forgot "The legion didn't destroy the raiders, they just gave them uniforms" I really couldn't have said it better myself

Paraphrasing Cass "It would probably be a lot easier running a caravan in CL territory...as long as you are a man" unless your pack Brahmin happens to be in the way of an officer of CL then you just shut up and take whatever you have coming your way.

I really NEED someone to point out a shade of gray in CL. It seems like living under the threat of death from raiders would be a much better life style for 85% of the population. As for the other 15%, most of them are officers in the CL and the only have a good life until the Legate decides that they have under performed.

1.Did you know the US still enslave people before Civil War?
2.The Legion ban drugs, the drug dealers allied with them is their own fault.
3.Seeing tribes would neutrally be matriarchy, it is more of a political need.
4.Learn more works, there is something call primitive.
5.Facepalm.
6.Where the hell did you get that from?

1. Oh I get it, because US did it in the past implies that slavery is now a heavenly, ordained by god type of an action lol.

2. Except the destruction of the Khans had nothing to do with drugs. Their treaty stated that the Khans would have lands west of NV, not be decimated and absorbed into the legion.

3. Ohhhh it was political, in that case no harm done! I am sure that when you see that its all political seeing the love of your life being r@ped by a gang of soldiers doesn't seem so bad.

4. Ok... are you implying that no line can be drawn in primitive actions? Primitive actions cant be authoritarian or utilitarian?

5. Did it hurt?

6. Get what from? Your responses are all jumbled up.

1.More facepalm....slavery is not the just about defying human rights; it suppose to allow more people to live, in harsher conditions, but they lives. Abusing slaves is a separate topic.

2.Do you own a copy of their treaty?

3.I think the tern "Political" make things grey......but if that isn't enough, women's right in the 50's is still pretty poor.

4.Primitive=/=Evil. By your logic lioness are evil because they eat/kill their son when a new alpha male takeover.

5.It does, even more so after this post.

6.Last time I check The Fort they have healing powder and herbs.

I know that. Its more of the "anyone that isn't worthy are slave and all the male citizens are hardcoe soldiers since their childhood" kind of feeling of their beginning years.

1. Is there any evidence more people being able to survive due to slavery in FONV? If you do not "abuse" your slaves then why cant you just have them as laborers? In my eyes the very fact that you OWN a human being indicates a level of abuse.

2. Very few things are documented within the FO universe, we have to rely on what the Khans say their treaty is until we are given a better alternative. Are you assuming that the Khans wanted to have their elders killed and be merged into the legion?

3. You are putting restrictions on something that really doesn't have them. Political actions have all sorts of colors.

4. Wow so we justifying the legion by using the actions of animals now lol? Originally I thought you meant primitive human behavior as in things we did like 2000 years ago. If you choose to justify the Legion by comparing them to animals then I really have no counter argument lol.

5. Good lol

6. Caesar himself supports my point by saying they have no modern medicine to speak off. Caesar rewards his most successful lieutenants by letting them use the autodoc (this implies that the healing powder cant heal all wounds or fix broken limbs like stims). He didn't really elaborate as to why he chose this course of action but this really svcks for the general population.

I don't think House ever tries to create a Utopia. He's more concerned with technological progress, and creating a neat and orderly world without the dangerous problem of emotion or compassion. He certainly uses gamblers and drug addicts to his own ends like cattle. He's like Machiavelli mixed with Ayn Rand.

The game is largely centered around the NCR. The NCR has some low points, but they aren't really touched on much. They are a very light Grey.

Caesar's Legion is a different story. The game focuses on its low points, and is portrayed as being a large group of evil slavers that formed an army. They have some high points that are ignored or only mentioned in little dialogue. They are a very dark grey.

Mr. House and Yes Man are plain Grey, but they have very few quests (none outside of the Main Quest line I think).

The NCR though have "purer" motives than house and Yes Man. House and Yes Man are about Greed, pure and simple. The NCR is trying to bring back Democracy and Civilisation.

The NCR lacks the capabilities to do both. Their Democracy involves rampant corruption and incompetence, the military leadership is trying to fulfill the wishes of the politicians that put them into their position instead of getting results effectively, and the only reason they are in New Vegas is to aquire resources to make itself stronger.

Mr. House, however, has the capabilities to unify and advance the human race. He even claims he can put a man into space within 50 years, build colonization ships in 100 years to colonize unpolluted planets, and that all of this can be achieved through the economy of New Vegas.

Yes Man is just a manipulative robot that puts you into power and implies he is being reprogrammed to take control.

I wasn't expecting so many, nor as elaborate, responses like this-but it's cool to see everyone's opinions in such detail. :]

From what most have said, unless it's hugely influenced by the fact the game is new for everyone, it seems it was pretty gray-though just barely. Despite the fact about four people, maybe slightly more, argued it was just black and white. It often seems the opinion of how gray the morality of the game is is partially based on one's own view of morality, and how to determine what morality counts as. For example, a lot of people have been arguing that actions count more than statements and such.

How many groups can you ally with, anyways? Anyone? I mean things like like the Enclave or Brotherhood of Steel, things like that. The only groups I've heard as if you could severely influence them or be involved were the NCR, Caesar's Legion, Yes Man, and Mr. House. Is it just that they are the most major examples to use?

On a more random note: I loved the Technicolor joke on, I'm pretty sure, page 1.

Ceaser, NCR, Yes man and Mr. House are the major powers in the game. There basically is no Enclave in the west anymore, and the BoS are very minor too.

Yes I was trying to say this earlier, and someone else posted most of the NCR's grey is talked about but not actually shown much on a players perspective in game, by the most only the end credits show some of this grey to certain other factions found in game.
The thing thats confussing me is that people equate corruption of some factions within the larger NCR with torture, [censored], slavery, mass executions, decimation, inequality, and elitism.

I have sounded like an NCR supporter but if anything my loyalty is with the Khans, imo all but three True NCR members, not heads of factions like crimson caravans or mercs are by and large folk I would consider good, decent, reasonable and willing to work for the good of everyone. and just plain folk I like.
The CL I've met are nowhere near that, arrogant, cruel, brutal, unreasonable to a bunch, and just plain silly with their outlook imo.

take col. moore. she could be a legion commander as well just going from her personality, since she fulfills all the above mentioned.
freedom and democracy are largely propaganda memes, while the game implies the ncr being factually more a plutocracy than anything else.(again, nice reference to a contemportary nation here)
yeah, nobody will deny that legion of course is the bigger evil, but my stomach's aching heavily when i have to read about the ncr as the "white" or "light grey" solution.

I know Col Moore is the one of three I posted about, untill you meet her and Thomas Hildren OSP director every other NCR member is good or can be persuaded to do the right thing very easily though.
I'm not saying NCR is good in the sense of noble palladins, but from what I've experienced they're a lot purer than FO2 in practices, and my stomach and head goe's into a twist when I see petty selfishness and corruption put on par with murder and torture.
As 90% of NCR's badness is down to foul up's, one or two greedy bad'uns and extremely poor CoC, not an intentional need to be bad for the sake of some supposed greater good.

The NCR doe's not condone torture, officers are forced to use you, CL happily engage in it as a weapon of terror even apon it's allies.
Genocide CL will wipe out comunities if they're deemed weak or corrupt, NCR will guard any and all if it's able too.
Brother / sisterhood, NCR will act to save if possible or relieve suffering if they deem it the only way due to lack of resources, CL will commit all members to kill themselves to protect Ceaser.
NCR will commit it's best and finest to the front line to succure the least expensive in life victory, CL will sacrifice any and all weakest first.
NCR puts progress first but has many voices seeking caution to dangers and proper study first, all for food, energy and security, CL will procede sacrificing as many as it takes just for personnal gain.

1.) I don't see how is this different in practice; in fact, I would say NCR is deceptive about their code of ethics.
2). Heavy taxes and rolling over is only half a grain better than slavery, probably worst if those slaves have proper justice to protect them.
3). Err....I wouldn't confuse the Rangers, voluntary militant dedicate to freedom and safely of everyone, with the country they are based.
4). Again, the Rangers are not really NCR; they are voluntary militants who have a strong connection to the founding of NCR.....what about Helios One? Bitter Spring? and the current standard equipment?
5). Well....given we only get to interact with military part of the Legion, there is no clear cut for this subject.

But I would agree that Caesar have no [censored] idea what the [censored] he's doing; from the information provided in game I am pretty sure Joshua Graham was the one actually running the Legion, and deliberately lost the first battle of Hoover Dam to escape as he realized he can no longer replace/control Caesar.

This is an interesting take, I have to admit.
It was said he was an inflexible commander following the doctrine of CL, cannon fodder first, bullet shields next, grinders, followed lastly by elite units..
At the same time it's said Ceaser was back east for the campaign in the Mojave, so any brilliant tactics seen before could've been Joshua's but he was forced to submit to Ceasers tactics to prove loyalty.
That just goe's to show though that the legion is heavily Lawfull Evil, any descent in ranks or failure is punished not by the chiefs but the chattle.
This is all speculation but thanks for posting the idea.

Again when I said they need you to tourture I was being vauge, one single, sole, lone individual would like you to torture on her own inititive not the whole NCR which shy's from it.
In the CL I doubt you would get one person that would ask you to stop beating someone, let alone if they had something of value to spill.

Heavy taxes is ethically dubious only if few gain, if people gains mostly on a whole on the most and it filters down even if in a small way it benefits an emergent society more than individuals scrapping alone.
Even then it's not Morally wrong or evil, just a matter of ethics.

Rangers are a huge part of the NCR, both millitary and socially, they are both bound by rules of law in spirit, but free to decide the moral right path, as seen by every ranger apart from Col Moore's.


Bitter springs was a CoC foul up with the first recon, not the rangers. at any point the situation could have turned differently, if they used initiative.
No matter how much I love the Khans first hand testimony from survivours point that they used children and women in combat and before bitter springs were far more dreadful in practice.

Helios, I have no defense apart that the NCR saw it as a power source to be diverted to settlements ( I know under there power yes ), BoS saw a big piece of tech and a weapon.

Equipment, yes I give you that but conidering their scale the need to protect many, many, many emergent areas all at once with no help from anyone else.
The fact that they deem it a priorty to keep at range for protection of personnal, rather than heres a blade go run into the gun lines that CL adopt, and that the merchants they try to protect are too busy destroying each other to bring in supplies, and that it's the Mojave one of the most hazardous areas irl, would say it's not all the NCR's fault.

The Millitary part, is all we have outside of dialogue, we know that they value young women as breeders as shown by Canyon Runner, that old are wasted no matter learning or potential.
We know that they sought weapons to destroy and pervert, and we know that any community not part of CL is anhillated, no matter loyalties.
Merchants are protected as long as they swear oath at the start, but we also know they are taxed heavily, and by many thats worse than sixual assault apparently, anyone else is destroyed entirely no matter how young or old.

Moral grey areas are a difficult prospect, especially in F:NV where they sell the grey areas as being the division of the factions and the notion that I can do this for Caesar then go and do this for NCR, etc.

However to keep it simple I would say that F:NV is still B/W because at the end of the day you must side with one person and that person will propagate you against the other factions strenuously to the point a certain character wants everyone dead and the guy with the big gun on his side.

Having said that, the road to the aforementioned point is actually grey at points because you can get on the wrong side of a faction but once a certain MQ appears you reset(someone confirm). As I have also said you can play along several factions sides being on one side then the other in a further quest and then being on a third faction killing both. I do not know how to ascertain if the choice of factions is the games grey area because in the end, you have to be on one side.

I hope that helps.

Reno

Can't really found it but, what I remember is Caesar have the Black Foot and other harden veterans was in Arizona campaign while Graham fights at Hoover. Although it is merely a speculation, the fact that Caesar didn't exist without the meeting with Joshua Graham and the conversation with Caesar in game make me believe his is merely a puppet turn to believe he is a capable leader.

Another source that support my speculation is the fact that both Dead Sea and Vulpes manage to launch effective raid while being out number two to one or more. This shows the Legionnaire officer is quite capable in tactics.

The Legion spies in NCR is deploy long before the First Battle of Hoover Dam, yet there is no mention of additional spies send afterward other than operatives in the Strip (after Graham disappear).

And here http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1142120-ncr-supply-route-in-new-vegas/page__view__findpost__p__16693074__fromsearch__1, if Caesar is some what capable he would have create a long front along Colorado and make the NCR spread thin.

There is no greed to Yes Man. Yes Man is about independence.