This was something brought up in the last thread and I thought it should be continued.

Given that the magic system has changed there would have to be a new way that spellcrafting worked.

Perks:
Before spells fell under one school, no matter how many there were. However now that wouldn't be an option as the perks have more influence over spells than plain old skills did. Whether it be reduced mana, distance, or length, perks allow us to influence spells in a more detailed way.

To solve this the game would have to split the schools into multiple schools. When you create a spell each spell would be influenced by the given skill tree. So if you have reduced mana for novice spells in both alteration and destruction the spellcrafting would take that into account. The only question would be about perks that influence things like duration, or distance which were variables you could previously manipulate.

Skill Tree:
There would need to be a skill tree for spellcrafting like there is for enchanting, alchemy, and smithing. A similar style would be appropriate where you level up your spellcrafting and it gives you access to more control. I don't believe any perks reducing the mana cost of spells would be balanced as it would become almost like double dipping, however I have some ideas.

Perk (style) 1: Allows for the player to have access to novice, apprentice, adept, expert, and master spells.
Perk (style) 2: Allows the player to have more control over the variables (such as damage)
Perk (style) 3: Allows for for base mana cost of spells. Meaning that before this perk spellscrafted would have a higher mana/spell point ratio than the base spells.
For example the standard ratio for the base flames spell is 14 mana per second to 8 damage per second. The ratio of this would be 1.75 at a base level. However under spellcrafting it would be 3.5 (two times as much, maybe 3 depending on if there are multiple perk 3's).

One could argue that this is stupid as spellcrafting should be related to magic, however it fits the current system, and the way people view skills.

Casting Types:
One of the problems I see is how spells are cast. Before there were really just three ways to cast a spell. You had touch, target, and self. When you summoned a familiar the familiar would basically appear beside you. In Skyrim you have effects like Flame which are constant, you also have runes, conjuring spells that allow you to say where you want to summon, magelight that sticks, and self spells.

Problems come in when you want to combine a flame spells, with a conjuring spell, and maybe a rune. Since there is no the ability to hold your spells and aim you're kind of stuck between 3 animations, and 3 different ways to cast the spell.

A work around would be to have a system like you have before where you pick what it'll be (touch, target, self) which could lead to some cool effects like magelight that sticks to an enemy and explodes, or runes that heal when stepped on (you could place them behind you and retreat if needed). However the problem of animation still comes in, and how the different types would ultimately work.

Without spellcrafting you're not stuck to 3 types of casting that work together. You can have these different types of spells because you don't have to worry about how they'll work when combined.

Perk problems:
Another problem is the effect perks have that extend the duration of the spell, and the distance. Would you allow those to affect spellcrafting? Do you allow for the player to create a rune spell that has a distance of 1 but then becomes multiplied by 5? How do you determine the difference between Novice and Master spells? How do you determine staggering?

Complexity:
As you can see with the introduction of perks the system becomes a bit more complex. You have a lot more influences affecting the spell, and ultimately its outcome. I'm not saying it requires a spreadsheet (although one would definitely help) but you'll need to do research and the different multipliers, and behind the scenes math will need to be given to the player in some form.

Other ideas:
If spellcrafting were ever implemented in some way I'd like to see them take it a step further in two ways.

1: I'd like to see it become more... natural. Have there be negative effects to spells you make (like alchemy). Have spell making be similar to Magicka (the game) where the spell you create could work against you in some way and kill you, or harm you in some way.
2: Add sequencing. I want to be able to throw a ball of magelight and have it blow up after a certain amount of time. This would allow for much more control, and better outcomes. I'd like to have a rune that paralyzes the enemy for 3 seconds, then as they rise it would explode, or calm them.

#2 is definitely broken as you could set up a chain of paralyzing. You could set up the first paralyze for 2 seconds, then have the second paralyze act after 2 seconds, and so on.

I don't intend for this thread to be used to discuss why spellcrafting should, or shouldn't be in the game. That gets us no where as it is nothing more than our opinions. I'd like to hear ideas for how this could, or would work. Proposing ideas will at least help to understand why it wasn't, or why it should be in the game. It may even help for mods to implement the idea... I'm probably being overly optimistic though.

Spellcrafting would be an absolute mess with the current system, which is why I venture to guess it was left out, and don't particularly want to see it implemented.

If implemented, it would have to be incredibly limited, which in turn would defeat the purpose of putting it in.

Many spell effects would be incompatible, and your spell combination possibilities would have to be severely limited by perks you've taken and what's available to you. I just don't think that Spellmaking as we've known it would work.

I'd rather them implement many of the missing spell effects (but not Open Lock) and spell combinations like we saw in the GameJam video.

I would want a completely new, in-game, spell labratory function. Where instead of learning spells and modifying them, you learn different "disciplines", similar to alchemy components, with known and unknown effects and when you mix and combine them you get new spells, some that may be better and more useful than existing ones, some that may simply be quite useless and some that are outright dangerous to your own well-being to cast.

Couldn't be anymore of a mess than what magic is currently in vanilla Skyrim.

I think spell crafting can be as simple as just adjusting the magnitude of the spell.

The higher the magnitude, the more expensive in mana it costs.

BUT, if the magnitude is too high and your skill level isn't high enough, it has a chance to backfire on you, causing damage to yourself.

This way, even the fire flame thing that people like can be powerful at high levels. The higher mana cost would make the perks that reduce the cost valuable.

So you can adjust the strength of the magic, but you cannot mix magic.

^THIS

I have not an ounce of modding skill whatsoever, but I've been thinking of what it would take to successfully implement Spellmaking.



"On Paper"...

1 - I think the simplest way is to make the choosing the visual effect of the new spell part of the spellmaking process. To get the mod up and running quickly, make it simple... probably something like picking a color using something like the custom color interface in paint. So if I made a Fire/Ice combo spell, I would choose fireball or ice spike visual effect, then I might turn the flame blue or ice spike red. This can be replaced with something better later on, but I think to get spellmaking into Skyrim quicker, good enough is good enough.

2 - The Solution to figuring out spell cost is make Mana the constant in the equation and the adjustments inversely proportionate. I can make a fireball spell with high damage & small radius or one with a large radius & low damage.

3 - Allow stacking of the same spell. I can make a fireball spell with high damage & small radius inside one with a large radius & low damage.

4 - It is OK that mana cost will go through the roof because mana cost enchantments/perks can knock it all to zero if you need it to.

I think it would be as simple as using Ice spell in one hand and fire spell in another, then bam water torrent! There, spellcrafting in skyrim.

This is my thought as well. I'm not saying that it couldn't be implemented, but when you look at how it would work you see that it would be extremely difficult to implement. One could argue that if the new system creates the problem with spellcrafting that it should be removed, however the new system is infinitely better than the old system of magic as many spells feel unique.

The more I look at how spellcrafting would work the more I see how limited, and broken it would be. The new spellcrafting would never be like the old spellcrafting and honestly you needed spellcrafting in the older games because many spells felt like they were cut from 1 of 3 molds.

Not that i dissagree with spellmaking, but it was broken in Oblivion.

Also the reasons spells currently in vanilla aren;t great is because
a. They dont scale on the same level as melee combat.
b. Dual casting costs too much for the damage upgrade vs the cast the spell in each hand once for damage (basically non efficient or better off single casting)


With the current system as well, adding more damage to the spell, would in turn use up more magicka, so its all moot in the end.
Casting a 3 Vanilla spells that use 100 magicka and do 40 damage vs casting one spellmade spell that uses 100 magicka and does 40 damage.. its moot

I still think making a simplistic approach should circumvent most of the technical hurdles, at least as placeholder to get the system up and running. It would allow for the greatest amount of compatibility between spells in the mean time, then when the system is in place the graphics can be revisited and polished or overhauled completely as need be. A getting a rudimentary but useable system up and running in the game is the most important thing [imo], then further polish on the visuals can be done. Looking at the visuals first is what got Spellmaking lost in the first place.

Also, I don't think that Spellmaking should have it's own perk tree, but instead perks can piggyback on the existing trees... or even existing perks.

A Focus item to start the spell making process

the spells you make are dependant on the amount of you're total Magicka, if you "cheat" with an item/potion to raise it, you effectively make a spell that can drain your fatigue and tax your magicka in the negetives.

for example if I'm making a fire ball spell, barring indept explanations about Concentration, intensity, Focus etc etc your fireball type changes as you ACTIVELY set them using your spell cast/charge key while in "focus mode" making your spells. their are what 5 different types of fire balls in vanilla skyrim? you combine other effects that are dependant on your Mastery and some perks?

Bam spell creation, it wouldnt be a mess because there isny anything different, please stop fooling yourselfs, spell effects are still spell effects and done. delivery methods are a boon and add even MORE options to how the spell creation would be used.