How do you dual wield effectively?

Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:12 am

that's the thing. you can't. i found, using the slow time shout or elemental fury shouts and all the dual wielding perks, to be the most effective way of using it. The weakness to the power attack is it leaves you open for a few minutes. i got rid of the weakness to a point. i really wish there was more incentive to actually dual wield. By this i mean, alternating between swords should be more effective (increasing the speed and damage when you alternate between both weapons) than spamming the right one.

Apparently elemental flurry pales in comparison to slow time in terms of attack speed, and since you can't use both....
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naomi
 
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Post » Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:34 pm

Apparently elemental flurry pales in comparison to slow time in terms of attack speed, and since you can't use both....

Actually you can, if you use the Fortify Restoration Glitch and an Amulet of Talos.

I've combined Slow Time, Elemental Fury, and Whirlwind Sprint into a back to back combo. Everything around me was dead in seconds.
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David Chambers
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:52 am

Oh! A glitch! Wonderful...the meta-gamer's solution to everything.
Bethesda made the game wrong, apparently, because clearly this is how it was meant to be played.
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Kat Ives
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:14 am

What I've found to be the best way to dual-wield effectively-it just to spam dual power attacks. That's right.

From someone who's a dual wielding veteran, that's a very bad tip. Playing on master you have to invest a lot of points, if not all, into HP if you plan to charge into everything, which dual wielding is all about. And you can't spam power attacks if you don't invest craploads of points into stamina, which then in turn makes you die in a matter of seconds.

The key is to be able to tank a lot of damage, and, as I've said, combine the effects of blunt, axe and sword weapons, depending on the enemy you're fighting, with swords being the least effective gameplay wise. So it's completely wrong to say that dual wielding normal attacks are worse or not better at all than fighting with a single weapon.

If the player is playing strictly out of roleplaying or on low difficulty, all these tips don't matter at all anyway.
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leni
 
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Post » Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:36 pm

Okay time for some real advice from a dual-wielding vet.
I've been dual-wielding on my past three characters, logging over 100 and probably close to something like 200+ hours of Skyrim and that's how long I've been playing the game. In other words, I've never played Skyrim where I wasn't playing a dual-wielding character. ...And it still causes me to scratch my head.

Some of the posters here have already touched on it. The key to dual-wielding is indeed to use dual power attacks. As far as I can tell that's the only way dual-wielding does more damage than...single-wielding? Essentially you're launching three power attacks in rapid succession, that's more damage output faster than any SINGLE weapon can do own its own (60x sneak attacks not included for obvious reasons).
You also have to understand how the mechanic works. Ever noticed how when swinging around a one-handed weapon if you press right trigger, release it, and quickly press and hold you'll do a normal attack and then quickly launch a power attack? Works with dual-wielding too, but only in one hand or the other. Someone already commented on how swinging right, left, right, left isn't any faster than swinging a single one-handed weapon. In order to achieve the same normal then quick-power attack you need to press both, release, and then quickly hold both. You'll do a dual attack and then quickly do a dual power attack (I call it flurry since you're launching into a flurry of strikes).
Dual-wielding is a pure damage playstyle, which should be obvious from the fact you're using two weapons to fight with no shield and no way to defend yourself except to attack--the best defense, right? What I've found to be the best way to dual-wield effectively--and feel free to call me out on this cuz it feels like cheesing--it just to spam dual power attacks. That's right.
Get the perk to reduce power attacks by 25%, dual flurry if you wish, as much stamina as you can stand, back your enemy up against a wall and then just spam dual power attacks. You should stagger whatever you're hitting every time and you can just keep spamming it until the enemy is dead or you run out of stamina. If the latter happens just quaff a few stamina potions and continue hacking the enemy to pieces.

Like I said, it IS spammy, and it honestly feels like cheesing, but I honestly think this is how dual-wielding is meant to be played. Abandon all defense and make your offense unrelenting. It puts a serious tax on stamina, but aren't dual-wielders supposed to be speedy little dervishes who attack so rapidly the enemy has no chance to counter? Not to mention you run outta steam pretty quickly fighting so recklessly, which is why the stamina pots (which I otherwise would not ever use) come into the picture.

I don't know anything about using a dagger in one hand, but I do know that the double daggers dual power attack has a pretty long animation and I can't say for certain if it truly is faster than a sword/mace/axe dual power attack since there's that delay while your character reverses his/her grip on the one dagger.
Additionally, to answer another one of your questions, you should carry a dagger for sneak attack purposes (30x damage is NIIIIIIICE), but feel free to switch to a weapon with higher damage as soon as combat starts. After all the only reason you use that dagger is for the 30x sneak attack bonus and you don't get that bonus if you're not sneaking, right? I even carry separate armor for sneaking (DB) and combat (whatever fully upgraded light armor set I'm currently on).

Using one dagger in one hand is the way to go if you want the fastest dual-wielding attacks for lowest stamina.
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Dagan Wilkin
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:30 am

thanks blerrger19. ive read all your posts. very helpfull =p
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Claire Vaux
 
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Post » Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:25 pm

From someone who's a dual wielding veteran, that's a very bad tip. Playing on master you have to invest a lot of points, if not all, into HP if you plan to charge into everything, which dual wielding is all about. And you can't spam power attacks if you don't invest craploads of points into stamina, which then in turn makes you die in a matter of seconds.

The key is to be able to tank a lot of damage, and, as I've said, combine the effects of blunt, axe and sword weapons, depending on the enemy you're fighting, with swords being the least effective gameplay wise. So it's completely wrong to say that dual wielding normal attacks are worse or not better at all than fighting with a single weapon.

If the player is playing strictly out of roleplaying or on low difficulty, all these tips don't matter at all anyway.

I actually play on master and it works just fine thank you.

Dual-wielding is not all about charging into everything. Go heavy armor and two-handed if that's what you wanna do. Dual-wielding is more about being dodgy and creating an opening and then when you have your enemy's back against a wall cutting him to ribbons by chaining dual power attacks.

Also, I'm pretty well spread out between health, magicka, and stamina as well as various skill trees and I'm doing just fine, thanks.

I'm level 33, have about 230 health, 210 magicka, and 210 stamina. Got the power attacks cost 25% less stamina perk from one-handed and I can chain dual power attacks all day. Naturally, I have the one-handed damage perks too, or else I could spam dual power attacks all day and never do enough damage to finish off that bandit marauder or blood dragon. I'm also using bound swords (with the damage perk) and my conjuration is pretty high as well.
Stamina potions help.

Also also, swords are not the least effective at all. Sure maces give you ignore armor, and axes cause bleed, and maybe criticals sounds like a pretty bad option by comparison since its unreliable, but taking all three levels of the bladesman perk actually equates to approximately a 25% increase in damage output. In other words swords do 25% more damage above maces or axes, and their attack speed is much faster too. So, realistically (although there is some fluctuation since critical hits are not guaranteed, but you're attacking fast enough anyway and hopefully landing so many hits that you ARE getting a LOT of criticals) swords actually have much higher damage to make up for their lack of bonuses like bleed or ignore armor...
I'm not saying swords are better, though. What I'm saying is its BALANCED.

...I think I see what's happening here. You do use heavy armor and you're a tanking dual-wielder aren't you?
I use light armor so I mostly focus on being dodgy, backing the enemy into a corner, and then going all filet-o-fish on them.
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Beth Belcher
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:25 am

Using one dagger in one hand is the way to go if you want the fastest dual-wielding attacks for lowest stamina.

If you say so mate
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Alan Cutler
 
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Post » Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:05 pm

thanks blerrger19. ive read all your posts. very helpfull =p

That's why I'm here lovey.
And also to troll that guy.
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Alexandra Louise Taylor
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:13 am

Honestly, I think that dual-wielding in all respects is broken, both weapons and magic. Yes, I think that magic dual-casting is broken.
Weapons: you can't block and can only swing either weapon as fast as if you were single-wielding, or you can perform the exact same boring and slow dual light attack for about the same dps.
Magic: your damage does go up significantly, yes, but your magica costs go up even more. In other words, the damage done with spells per unit of magica goes down. All that this accomplishes is that technically you are able to kill enemies faster, but only if you kill them before you run out of magica. You always could have done more overall damage single-casting two hands for less dps over a longer period of time (conserving magica). Honestly, waste of a perk, especially when no other perks have negative consequences like all dual-casting perks do. (Except augmented fire/frost/shock which have zero effect on several spells that they should absolutely have an effect on.)

EDIT: lol@blerrger's excellent use of quaff
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Alberto Aguilera
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:07 am

I don't like playing on the PC. While it offers a universally superior experience, mods, and the nature of PCs themselves change my priorities. Instead of playing the game, I become all about improving the game for the optimal experience. Since that's a moving target, I wind up spending tenfold more time modding, modhunting and tweaking for performance. I prefer the lack of freedom on Consoles, it makes me accept what I cannot change, and enjoy the game itself, on its own merits.

Suit yourself. Though I find Skyrim to be lacklustre without mods, but quite wonderful with, I understand what you mean. The mods can be quite tempting at times, even after you've settled for several of them. :P

However, I don't see how installing this mod would ruin your experience. You can very much play vanilla Skyrim, with a few mods here and there that improve the experience. The prime example here being the fact that you want to see both weapons sheathed. I doubt Bethesda is ever going to patch this but we never know... They surprised me with ranged kill-cams and mounted combat. All in all, I think the strongest suit of any Bethesda games lies within the mods.
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Auguste Bartholdi
 
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Post » Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:05 pm

I actually play on master and it works just fine thank you.

Dual-wielding is not all about charging into everything. Go heavy armor and two-handed if that's what you wanna do. Dual-wielding is more about being dodgy and creating an opening and then when you have your enemy's back against a wall cutting him to ribbons by chaining dual power attacks.

Also, I'm pretty well spread out between health, magicka, and stamina as well as various skill trees and I'm doing just fine, thanks.

I'm level 33, have about 230 health, 210 magicka, and 210 stamina. Got the power attacks cost 25% less stamina perk from one-handed and I can chain dual power attacks all day. Naturally, I have the one-handed damage perks too, or else I could spam dual power attacks all day and never do enough damage to finish off that bandit marauder or blood dragon. I'm also using bound swords (with the damage perk) and my conjuration is pretty high as well.
Stamina potions help.

...I think I see what's happening here. You do use heavy armor and you're a tanking dual-wielder aren't you?
I use light armor so I mostly focus on being dodgy, backing the enemy into a corner, and then going all filet-o-fish on them.

With one character, yes. I tried with light armor, but stats you provided are simply not enough for constant power attacks, tearing an enemy to shreds is impossible since it takes 3+ power attacks to kill an enemy (unless it's the lowest ranked one, and higher level creatures take even more), and in areas such as forsworn camps, one does not simply corner an enemy when there's 10 of them attacking you, especially if there's a hagraven included (that has craploads of HP and she's a whole separate fight after you clean all the NPCs), and if there's a mage forsworn that often summons a frost atronach along with everything else on you.

I'm sorry, but the way you claim you play, you'd get your ass handed to you in a matter of seconds when facing a large group of enemies (especially if magic oriented and if they can summon) on master, unless you kill them one by one by kiting single targets away from the group or unless you use a follower to tank a lot of damage.
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NAkeshIa BENNETT
 
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Post » Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:00 pm

Spam those triggers :wink_smile:
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Jessica Raven
 
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Post » Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:47 pm

I actually play on master and it works just fine thank you.

Dual-wielding is not all about charging into everything. Go heavy armor and two-handed if that's what you wanna do. Dual-wielding is more about being dodgy and creating an opening and then when you have your enemy's back against a wall cutting him to ribbons by chaining dual power attacks.

...I think I see what's happening here. You do use heavy armor and you're a tanking dual-wielder aren't you?
I use light armor so I mostly focus on being dodgy, backing the enemy into a corner, and then going all filet-o-fish on them.

this is not that type of game. you can't dodge and the weight difference between light and heavy is not great in combat. you cant force the opponent into a corner by swaying left and right. i honestly don't know where you're getting this from.
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Robyn Howlett
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:56 am

Honestly, I think that dual-wielding in all respects is broken, both weapons and magic. Yes, I think that magic dual-casting is broken.
Weapons: you can't block and can only swing either weapon as fast as if you were single-wielding, or you can perform the exact same boring and slow dual light attack for about the same dps.
Magic: your damage does go up significantly, yes, but your magica costs go up even more. In other words, the damage done with spells per unit of magica goes down. All that this accomplishes is that technically you are able to kill enemies faster, but only if you kill them before you run out of magica. You always could have done more overall damage single-casting two hands for less dps over a longer period of time (conserving magica). Honestly, waste of a perk, especially when no other perks have negative consequences like all dual-casting perks do. (Except augmented fire/frost/shock which have zero effect on several spells that they should absolutely have an effect on.)

EDIT: lol@blerrger's excellent use of quaff

Thanks, bro :D
Also, you can press and hold both triggers to do a dual power attack.
Also also, the ratio of effectiveness:magicka cost is actually more efficient when dual-casting (guidebook confirms this--cost is only double the cost of single-casting, but damage is "more than double"). Are you sure you have the dual-casting perks?
Did not catch on to the fact you meant broken as in underpowered until I realized everything you said is horribly horribly backwards...too used to using the word broken myself to describe the level 81.5 magic immunity vampire builds everyone (myself included) is using these days.
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claire ley
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:47 am

In my experience dual wielding is at best if you take advantage of the speed. Holding dagger on off hand and Sword on the right offer the best dps. When you do plain dual attack, which is to press both mouse button, you'll attack crossing your blades. My tactic is to do a power attack, which does triple moves, then quickly follow it by regular dual attack, then power attack again and regular. Alternating power and regular dual attack will reduce the animation time. If you combine this tactic with 'vegetable soup', you can extend the use of stamina.
Forum does not let me post link - go to youtube and search "pms00" (last two letters are zeros), in his channel look for one hand and dual guide. He explains all the pros and cons and all the options.
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Cameron Garrod
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:58 am

From what ive heard dual wielding slows down your character. And if you swing one side before the other there is a small delay that you cannot do anything about. The only way you can get around it is by doing a power attack.
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Averielle Garcia
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:16 am

With one character, yes. I tried with light armor, but stats you provided are simply not enough for constant power attacks, tearing an enemy to shreds is impossible since it takes 3+ power attacks to kill an enemy (unless it's the lowest ranked one, and higher level creatures take even more), and in areas such as forsworn camps, one does not simply corner an enemy when there's 10 of them attacking you, especially if there's a hagraven included (that has craploads of HP and she's a whole separate fight after you clean all the NPCs), and if there's a mage forsworn that often summons a frost atronach along with everything else on you.

I'm sorry, but the way you claim you play, you'd get your ass handed to you in a matter of seconds when facing a large group of enemies (especially if magic oriented and if they can summon) on master, unless you kill them one by one by kiting single targets away from the group or unless you use a follower to tank a lot of damage.

Dude. I play this build.
It works.

I said stamina potions help, didn't I? And how many power attacks do you think are in one flurry?
Anyway, I do get my ass handed to me. A lot. Especially when there are large groups of enemies...which is why...STEALTH!!
I'm also mostly stealth. Unlike you I don't charge into that fight with 10 forsworn and the hagraven. I sneak around and kill them off one by one, flee so my sorry ass doesn't get killed if I have to, resume sneaking, and when I know I can take a few guys then I charge. I hope I don't have to explain how ludicrously powerful a 30x sneak attack is, and as for direct combat my bound swords do a crap load of damage and they also banish summoned creatures.
I also use a lot of shouts, typically become ethereal, and yes my tactics for direct combat are much like that which you described--kiting away to draw out one enemy, dispatching him quickly and then dealing with the rest in a similar fashion.
And no I recently decided to leave Lydia at home and go it alone, so no followers, although I do occasionally raise a zombie minion from one of the many enemies I've slain.

Its like I'm making this up just to counter every argument you throw my way, but I'm not! I'm really not! Lol, and that's what makes it so damn funny.
Don't make assumptions about my playstyle when you don't understand the first thing about how I play. Kthx.
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Jade
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:10 am

this is not that type of game. you can't dodge and the weight difference between light and heavy is not great in combat. you cant force the opponent into a corner by swaying left and right. i honestly don't know where you're getting this from.

I use light armor because I'm primarily a stealth class.
Also, yes it is. Have you played this game? Try watching your enemy's movements and stepping out of the way in the right direction with just the right timing. Axes, swords, maces, one-handed or two-handed, normal or power attacks, you can dodge anything provided you're paying attention closely and know where the hit is going to land. Hell I can even dodge by stepping backwards out of the way of some two-handed power attacks despite the fact they nerfed backpedaling.

Also, weight difference has nothing to do with being dodgy vs. tanking.
I dodge out of necessity because of the lower armor rating light armor offers...and because on master difficulty with my hp I easily get two-shotted by literally everything.
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Lory Da Costa
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:07 am

In my experience dual wielding is at best if you take advantage of the speed. Holding dagger on off hand and Sword on the right offer the best dps. When you do plain dual attack, which is to press both mouse button, you'll attack crossing your blades. My tactic is to do a power attack, which does triple moves, then quickly follow it by regular dual attack, then power attack again and regular. Alternating power and regular dual attack will reduce the animation time. If you combine this tactic with 'vegetable soup', you can extend the use of stamina.
Forum does not let me post link - go to youtube and search "pms00" (last two letters are zeros), in his channel look for one hand and dual guide. He explains all the pros and cons and all the options.

You mean http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJEdi2WzkLc video?
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Chloe Yarnall
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:16 am

I actually play on master and it works just fine thank you.

Dual-wielding is not all about charging into everything. Go heavy armor and two-handed if that's what you wanna do. Dual-wielding is more about being dodgy and creating an opening and then when you have your enemy's back against a wall cutting him to ribbons by chaining dual power attacks.

Also, I'm pretty well spread out between health, magicka, and stamina as well as various skill trees and I'm doing just fine, thanks.

I'm level 33, have about 230 health, 210 magicka, and 210 stamina. Got the power attacks cost 25% less stamina perk from one-handed and I can chain dual power attacks all day. Naturally, I have the one-handed damage perks too, or else I could spam dual power attacks all day and never do enough damage to finish off that bandit marauder or blood dragon. I'm also using bound swords (with the damage perk) and my conjuration is pretty high as well.
Stamina potions help.

Also also, swords are not the least effective at all. Sure maces give you ignore armor, and axes cause bleed, and maybe criticals sounds like a pretty bad option by comparison since its unreliable, but taking all three levels of the bladesman perk actually equates to approximately a 25% increase in damage output. In other words swords do 25% more damage above maces or axes, and their attack speed is much faster too. So, realistically (although there is some fluctuation since critical hits are not guaranteed, but you're attacking fast enough anyway and hopefully landing so many hits that you ARE getting a LOT of criticals) swords actually have much higher damage to make up for their lack of bonuses like bleed or ignore armor...
I'm not saying swords are better, though. What I'm saying is its BALANCED.

...I think I see what's happening here. You do use heavy armor and you're a tanking dual-wielder aren't you?
I use light armor so I mostly focus on being dodgy, backing the enemy into a corner, and then going all filet-o-fish on them.

I agree here. My play style is stealth. I use a combination of illusion spells and sneak perks to get the drop on enemies. but when i must fight i go dual wield for two reasons:

first: dual wielding is an offensive style, being light armor and stealthy you don't usually have the ability to focus on defensive perks.To avoid getting killed you need to drop the guy quickly. In my opinion dual wielding works best with light armor. however i do believe Bethesda needs to tweak dual wielding to allow for faster swings.
second: I can control the situation better. if i am low on charge for a weapon i equip a dagger with soul trap in the left hand and an enchanted sword in the right. giving me an effective damage output while still filling gems. When i get swarmed with enemies i will equip a dagger with paralysis, or frost damage to slow attackers down giving me the ability to control the situation or create some distance.

To use dual wielding effectively you need to take advantage of what it can offer you: Offense, more damage output and effective combinations of enchantments.
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Chase McAbee
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:40 am



Thanks, bro :D
Also, you can press and hold both triggers to do a dual power attack.
Also also, the ratio of effectiveness:magicka cost is actually more efficient when dual-casting (guidebook confirms this--cost is only double the cost of single-casting, but damage is "more than double"). Are you sure you have the dual-casting perks?
Did not catch on to the fact you meant broken as in underpowered until I realized everything you said is horribly horribly backwards...too used to using the word broken myself to describe the level 81.5 magic immunity vampire builds everyone (myself included) is using these days.

Guidebook, huh? Maybe they intended it to be as such in production, but somewhere along the way that changed as that is not how magic performs in practice.
It won't let me post the link, but go to the UESP website and search for "magic overview" and scroll to dual-casting
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Damian Parsons
 
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Post » Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:49 pm

Its like I'm making this up just to counter every argument you throw my way

It truly is. I don't mind it, I see a lot of bs on this forum. :goodjob:
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Talitha Kukk
 
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Post » Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:18 pm

Guidebook, huh? Maybe they intended it to be as such in production, but somewhere along the way that changed as that is not how magic performs in practice.
It won't let me post the link, but go to the UESP website and search for "magic overview" and scroll to dual-casting

^Discredits first-party published material.
Accredits player-created content.

Sure.
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Horror- Puppe
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:07 am

It truly is. I don't mind it, I see a lot of bs on this forum. :goodjob:

Granted, but even if I were making this stuff up (I do actually play this build and I'm not making it up, but let's say I am) about my playstyle that doesn't change the fact that these perks do exist in the game....
The fact that you brought up summons and the fact that I use bound weapons and the Oblivion binding perk is just a sad sad coincidence...for you.
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Theodore Walling
 
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