Instead of Nerfing Smithing... A Suggestion : V - Skyrim

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:05 pm

Without them gear does not progress. It is static. They weighted the crafting skills way too heavily. Found items should ALWAYS have a chance of being superior than what you can craft, considering how easy it is to craft and improve items. The trade off should be that crafting provides a quicker way to get really good items that continue to scale.

Not always. Unique items, yes, but if found items are ALWAYS better than even the best-crafted items, you head into a situation where it's pointless to craft your own.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:42 pm

How about introducing new items. Like for smithing you need a certain kind of oil along with the refined ore or leather to be able to upgrade an armor or weapon, and of course that oil is very very rare random loot, and for each step in upgrade level you need an extra potion, so for legendary you would need 6 of those oils, or howmany steps are there.
Same with enchanting, but instead of oil some kind of crystalpowder next to the soulgem, maybe those soulgemshards you find here and there.
It wouldnt be so evident to make legendaries out of the blue.
the idea for making it purchasable is nice too but at least it should be expensive as hell to do it. As some have pointed out that it doesnt require work to do it, just cash. If that would be the case add a perk to speechcraft, alows for purchasing item upgrades and enchants. Like 80-90 speech required. Make a use of speechcraft in the process aswell, so instead of putting points in smithing or enchanting you have to put em in speech.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:03 pm

Because in a properly balanced game there are a range of match ups.

I am powerful, wolves, bears, most bandits, etc fall easily.
I am powerful, but some higher level bandits, vampires, etc are equal to me and the fight can go either way sometimes.
I am powerful, but a dragon, a dragon priest, etc can still make me fight for me life and force me to earn every bit of damage against them to win.

That's proper balance.

Well put. That sounds like a proper balance to me.

How about introducing new items. Like for smithing you need a certain kind of oil along with the refined ore or leather to be able to upgrade an armor or weapon, and of course that oil is very very rare random loot, and for each step in upgrade level you need an extra potion, so for legendary you would need 6 of those oils, or howmany steps are there.
Same with enchanting, but instead of oil some kind of crystalpowder next to the soulgem, maybe those soulgemshards you find here and there.
It wouldnt be so evident to make legendaries out of the blue.
the idea for making it purchasable is nice too but at least it should be expensive as hell to do it. As some have pointed out that it doesnt require work to do it, just cash. If that would be the case add a perk to speechcraft, alows for purchasing item upgrades and enchants. Like 80-90 speech required. Make a use of speechcraft in the process aswell, so instead of putting points in smithing or enchanting you have to put em in speech.

Some of that tends to make it near-impossible to upgrade weapons, though. I can understand perhaps the highest level of imporovement - you can justly say that perhaps the term "legendary" should in fact mean "legendary", and perhaps require rare substances to achieve such a level of quality. But not the lower levels of improvement, though.

Also, as for speechcraft, it sounds unlikely to have to convince some master smith to sell you his good stuff. A master smith that can improve weapons to legendary status would be in high demand, would have a valuable skill, and would be looking to sell his products as widely as possible in order to become rich. You shouldn't have to beg for their stuff, they should be wanting to sell it to you - but of course truly legendary-quality items should be very, very expensive.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:25 am

Bah, I'm too lazy to smith/enchant anyways...Been that way since morrowind, 'cept for the 10th playthru with Oblivion, as there's not much left after over a thousand hours...

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:41 pm

a real time limit on the amount of skill levels you canc gain would help greatly. instead of spending 10 minutes to craft 400 daggers and raising bs from 20-100, it would not take several hours with traveling and rpging in between.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:54 am

Not always. Unique items, yes, but if found items are ALWAYS better than even the best-crafted items, you head into a situation where it's pointless to craft your own.

Found items are not "always" better. Found items will always have a chance of being better than what you can craft. Smithing, provides 2 functions. Crafting gear and Improving it. Crafting gear really does not matter. The only real draw to Crafted gear through Smithing is the fact you will more than likely be able Craft a full set well before you FIND a full set. Improving gear is really what Smithing is all about. It does not matter if you find or craft an Ebony Sword, they will be identical in stats. What I am suggesting would be that you could always find "exceptional" or higher qualities of Ebony items in the world. They would have a potentially higher base value than their crafted counter-part. There is STILL a point in Crafting as you can craft the armor faster than you can find it, and let's face it the only reason why people take Smithing is to improve their gear anyways.

Enchanting, is an entirely different animal. I find fault in the fact that found item Enchants are identical to the ones the Player can perform first off. Found items should have special enchants on them that you can only get by finding them. You would be able to place Enchantments ON TOP of it to further customize and augment the item. This gives an obvious edge to Enchanting, but it still has your searching for items. The major problem with Enchanting is that Crafting and found items only vary by the % of the enchant. This means you pick the higher value. Crafting, is always better.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:21 am

I have removed all the rotting pieces of horse flesh that is about Balance in a Single Player Game.

This thread is about Smithing and Enchanting how to make it work differently. If you want to discuss game balance and people being over-powered or underpowered or side powered, that is for another thread. Of which we have quite a few discussing game balance.

Keep the posts in this thread to Smithing and Enchanting and how it can be done differently.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:06 am

Well, if history of TES is any indication, anything that is broken because it wasn't implemented well, will simply be cut from the next game. Smithing and Enchanting will likely join spell creation and a host of other spell effects on the cutting room floor.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:35 pm

I have removed all the rotting pieces of horse flesh that is about Balance in a Single Player Game.

This thread is about Smithing and Enchanting how to make it work differently. If you want to discuss game balance and people being over-powered or underpowered or side powered, that is for another thread. Of which we have quite a few discussing game balance.

Keep the posts in this thread to Smithing and Enchanting and how it can be done differently.

Seriously? The basis of the thread is about "nerfing" smithing. It's been related to game balance from the very start.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:30 pm

Well, if history of TES is any indication, anything that is broken because it wasn't implemented well, will simply be cut from the next game. Smithing and Enchanting will likely join spell creation and a host of other spell effects on the cutting room floor.

I'm still holding out hope that they might be brought back... along with such other things as Levitation... etc.
Cutting the fun out of the game never struck me as an effective corner to cut, but a lot of game developers seem quite fond of it.

Seriously? The basis of the thread is about "nerfing" smithing. It's been related to game balance from the very start.

Not particularly.
That just seems to be your personal bugbear of choice (i.e. a desire to impose your will on others arbitrarily).
Now be a good fellow and shut up about it already.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:17 am

This is, in my opinion, what I believe the Smithing skill tree, and Smithing in general, should have been.

Smithing in general, should have been recipe based like Alchemy, not a simple place Perk and instant unlock the next level of equipment.

First Perk:
Focused Smithing (No level requirement) 1 point
Choose either Weapons or Armor to specialize in. Chosen equipment will gain X% bonus to Damage or Armor when crafted.

What this means is that if you choose to specialize in Weapons and then make say, an Iron Dagger, if the Dagger normally has a base damage of 5, because you specialize in Weapons it would get a % added to its damage when crafted.

Second Perk:
Cloth Maker (No level requirement) 1 point
Can now make Cloth gear.

What this means is that... well, you can make Clothes. And it could be set up in the tree in such a way that it could connect to every other Perk, thus not forcing you to pick this and Focused Smithing if you don't want to.

Third Perk:
Jeweler (Level 20) 1 point
Allows the Smith to improve upon jewels.

What this means is that you could find a Ruby and, because of training, know how to cut it to become a Flawless Ruby.

Fourth Perk:
Geologist/Tanner (Level 30) 1 point
Allows the Smith to choose between either always finding a jewel while mining ore or yielding an extra Leather/Leather Strip when Tanning.

What this means is basically, if you mine for ore then for every piece of ore you gain you also gain a gem, or for every time you create Leather or Leather Strips you get 1 additional Leather or Leather Strip.

Fifth Perk:
Dedication (Level 40) 1 point
Choose a specific type of Weapon or Armor (based on Focused Smithing) to specialize in. Chosen equipment will gain X% bonus to Damage or Armor when crafted.

What this means is that if you choose to specialize in Daggers and then make say, an Iron Dagger, if the Dagger normally has a base damage of 5, because you specialize in Daggers it would get a % added to its damage when crafted and stacks with Focused Smithing. Basically this allows you to create a character, if desired, to be the best Swordsmith, or Curiass smith, etc.

Sixth Perk:
Blueprinter (Level 50) 1 point
Allows you to breakdown a piece of equipment to see how it is made, therefore learning its Recipe.

What this means is that it's Disenchant for Smithing.

Seventh Perk:
Arcane Blacksmith (Level 60) 1 point
Upgrade enchanted Weapons and Armor.

Eighth Perk:
Enchanted Materials (Level 70) 1 point
Allows the player to bring out the hidden traits of specialized materials (Elven, Dwarven, Orcish, Glass, Ebony, Daedric, and Dragon) that are imbued into the item on creation.

What this means is that if you create a Sword using Quicksilver (i.e. an Elven Sword) it would have some sort of special enchantment on it on creation that does not count towards the normal Enchantment craft. Basically, a weak, and free, 3rd enchantment. Ideas for this include:

Elven Weapons: Swing 5% faster
Elven Armor: 5% Stealth bonus
Dwarven Weapons: Cannot be Disarmed
Dwarven Armor: 5% magic resist
Orcish Weapon: 5 poison damage
Orcish Armor: 5% poison resist
Glass Weapon: Weak Candlelight
Glass Armor: 5% lighter
Ebony Weapons: +5 damage
Ebony Armor: +5 Armor
Daedric Weapons: 10 point Life Leech
Daedric Armor: Lowers Health by 15
Dragon Weapons: 10 fire damage
Dragon Armors: 5% Shout time reduction

(Those are just off the top of my head :happy:

;;; )

Ninth Perk:
Master Worker (Level 80) 1 point
Material costs are cut in half.

What this means is that if your sword requires two ingots to make it will now only require one. Cost cannot go below one.

Tenth Perk:
Jeweled Equipment (Level 90) 1 point
Infuse a piece of enchanted jewelry onto a piece of equipment.

What this means is that if you have a piece of Glass Gauntlets (with 5% lighter enchantment) and a Gold Ring (with a 20% Stamina Regen enchantment) you can fuse them together to get a pair of Golden Glass Gloves which are 5% lighter with a 20% Stamina Regen.

Eleventh Perk:
Baneful Crafter (Level 100) 1 point
Your equipment is designed with your most hated rivals in mind. Gain an additional X% damage or reduced X% damage when facing off against those you hate the most!

What this means is that you choose a type of enemy (Beast, Human, Daedric, Dragon, Machine, Humanoid, Undead) and every Weapon you create will do X% additional damage to that enemy and every piece of Armor you make will give a X% damage reduction to the damage received from them.

Thoughts?

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:03 pm

Well, if history of TES is any indication, anything that is broken because it wasn't implemented well, will simply be cut from the next game. Smithing and Enchanting will likely join spell creation and a host of other spell effects on the cutting room floor.

Other than some balance issues, I think Smithing and Enchanting are implemented pretty well. The problem, in my view, is that the rest of the world, including blacksmith/enchanting NPCs, don't seem to participate.

I prefer to find the most powerful weapons deep in a forgotten ruin, or for conquering a powerful adversary. I do not want to be able to craft or temper the most powerful weapons. However, if I do get a nice weapon in a dungeon, it would be nice to take it to my friendly local blacksmith NPC to get it (moderately) improved, not to have to level a skill I'm not necessarily interested in to do so. It's about consistency within the world for me over other considerations.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:41 am

This is, in my opinion, what I believe the Smithing skill tree, and Smithing in general, should have been.

Smithing in general, should have been recipe based like Alchemy, not a simple place Perk and instant unlock the next level of equipment.

First Perk:
Focused Smithing (No level requirement) 1 point
Choose either Weapons or Armor to specialize in. Chosen equipment will gain X% bonus to Damage or Armor when crafted.

What this means is that if you choose to specialize in Weapons and then make say, an Iron Dagger, if the Dagger normally has a base damage of 5, because you specialize in Weapons it would get a % added to its damage when crafted.

Second Perk:
Cloth Maker (No level requirement) 1 point
Can now make Cloth gear.

What this means is that... well, you can make Clothes. And it could be set up in the tree in such a way that it could connect to every other Perk, thus not forcing you to pick this and Focused Smithing if you don't want to.

Third Perk:
Jeweler (Level 20) 1 point
Allows the Smith to improve upon jewels.

What this means is that you could find a Ruby and, because of training, know how to cut it to become a Flawless Ruby.

Fourth Perk:
Geologist/Tanner (Level 30) 1 point
Allows the Smith to choose between either always finding a jewel while mining ore or yielding an extra Leather/Leather Strip when Tanning.

What this means is basically, if you mine for ore then for every piece of ore you gain you also gain a gem, or for every time you create Leather or Leather Strips you get 1 additional Leather or Leather Strip.

Fifth Perk:
Dedication (Level 40) 1 point
Choose a specific type of Weapon or Armor (based on Focused Smithing) to specialize in. Chosen equipment will gain X% bonus to Damage or Armor when crafted.

What this means is that if you choose to specialize in Daggers and then make say, an Iron Dagger, if the Dagger normally has a base damage of 5, because you specialize in Daggers it would get a % added to its damage when crafted and stacks with Focused Smithing. Basically this allows you to create a character, if desired, to be the best Swordsmith, or Curiass smith, etc.

Sixth Perk:
Blueprinter (Level 50) 1 point
Allows you to breakdown a piece of equipment to see how it is made, therefore learning its Recipe.

What this means is that it's Disenchant for Smithing.

Seventh Perk:
Arcane Blacksmith (Level 60) 1 point
Upgrade enchanted Weapons and Armor.

Eighth Perk:
Enchanted Materials (Level 70) 1 point
Allows the player to bring out the hidden traits of specialized materials (Elven, Dwarven, Orcish, Glass, Ebony, Daedric, and Dragon) that are imbued into the item on creation.

What this means is that if you create a Sword using Quicksilver (i.e. an Elven Sword) it would have some sort of special enchantment on it on creation that does not count towards the normal Enchantment craft. Basically, a weak, and free, 3rd enchantment. Ideas for this include:

Elven Weapons: Swing 5% faster
Elven Armor: 5% Stealth bonus
Dwarven Weapons: Cannot be Disarmed
Dwarven Armor: 5% magic resist
Orcish Weapon: 5 poison damage
Orcish Armor: 5% poison resist
Glass Weapon: Weak Candlelight
Glass Armor: 5% lighter
Ebony Weapons: +5 damage
Ebony Armor: +5 Armor
Daedric Weapons: 10 point Life Leech
Daedric Armor: Lowers Health by 15
Dragon Weapons: 10 fire damage
Dragon Armors: 5% Shout time reduction

(Those are just off the top of my head :happy:

;;; )

Ninth Perk:
Master Worker (Level 80) 1 point
Material costs are cut in half.

What this means is that if your sword requires two ingots to make it will now only require one. Cost cannot go below one.

Tenth Perk:
Jeweled Equipment (Level 90) 1 point
Infuse a piece of enchanted jewelry onto a piece of equipment.

What this means is that if you have a piece of Glass Gauntlets (with 5% lighter enchantment) and a Gold Ring (with a 20% Stamina Regen enchantment) you can fuse them together to get a pair of Golden Glass Gloves which are 5% lighter with a 20% Stamina Regen.

Eleventh Perk:
Baneful Crafter (Level 100) 1 point
Your equipment is designed with your most hated rivals in mind. Gain an additional X% damage or reduced X% damage when facing off against those you hate the most!

What this means is that you choose a type of enemy (Beast, Human, Daedric, Dragon, Machine, Humanoid, Undead) and every Weapon you create will do X% additional damage to that enemy and every piece of Armor you make will give a X% damage reduction to the damage received from them.

Thoughts?

I would switch 8th with 9th and take out tenth, cus that would be even more insane if you enchant a ring with two enchants you end up with 4 pieces of armor with a mindboggling 12 enchants :biggrin:

Asuming you cant enchant those armors other wise it would be 20 enchants lol.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:17 am

...

Tenth Perk:
Jeweled Equipment (Level 90) 1 point
Infuse a piece of enchanted jewelry onto a piece of equipment.

What this means is that if you have a piece of Glass Gauntlets (with 5% lighter enchantment) and a Gold Ring (with a 20% Stamina Regen enchantment) you can fuse them together to get a pair of Golden Glass Gloves which are 5% lighter with a 20% Stamina Regen.

Eleventh Perk:
Baneful Crafter (Level 100) 1 point
Your equipment is designed with your most hated rivals in mind. Gain an additional X% damage or reduced X% damage when facing off against those you hate the most!

What this means is that you choose a type of enemy (Beast, Human, Daedric, Dragon, Machine, Humanoid, Undead) and every Weapon you create will do X% additional damage to that enemy and every piece of Armor you make will give a X% damage reduction to the damage received from them.

Thoughts?

Now while your idea of the tree seems like a rather good one... and certainly would make for creative smithing..... towards the end, you're entering "make exponentially more work for the designers" territory... and consequentially... more game-space. The same sorts of reasons why mods can't be used on the games consoles. Not quite so feasible there.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:20 pm

I would switch 8th with 9th and take out tenth, cus that would be even more insane if you enchant a ring with two enchants you end up with 4 pieces of armor with a mindboggling 12 enchants :biggrin:

Asuming you cant enchant those armors other wise it would be 20 enchants lol.

With this tree I would most probably remove the ability to enchant a single item twice.

Or have a prerequisite that states you can't take one if you have the other.

Now while your idea of the tree seems like a rather good one... and certainly would make for creative smithing..... towards the end, you're entering "make exponentially more work for the designers" territory... and consequentially... more game-space. The same sorts of reasons why mods can't be used on the games consoles. Not quite so feasible there.

Somewhat true. We don't know for sure how much work and space this would actually take.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:19 pm

I prefer to find the most powerful weapons deep in a forgotten ruin

I agree. I just wish the real world were like that. I'd love to go clear out a nearby crack house and find a high-end dishwasher and a self-propelled lawn mower in the basemant.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:46 pm

Smithing and Enchanting are all but mandatory skills to level if I have any interest in having the best weapons and armor possible, and I suppose that should always be the rule. However, the gap between those who choose to craft and those who would prefer not to is quite wide in my opinion. Many players have advocated for a "rebalancing" of those skills, but I would suggest a different alternative: make improved weapons/armor available for purchase from blacksmith vendors, and make improvement a "for hire" service provided by them.

The first time I met Eurland Grey-Mane, he was busily sitting at his grindstone, working away. But when I asked to see his wares, there wasn't an improved weapon in sight. It is a bit immersion breaking that in this world where there are grindstones in every town and many dungeons, that the only improved weapons are the ones crafted by players. Additionally, I don't want to have to level smithing to 60 just so the awesome piece of loot I found in a dungeon can be improved. I'd prefer to drop some coin into Mr. Grey-Mane's hand and have him improve it for me.

I understand there are likely technical reasons this wasn't included in the game, and that modders will likely do this at some point (dammit crappy PC-of-mine!) but I'm just trying to suggest an out-of-the box approach rather than the player-suggested "nerf smithing and save me from myself" approach.

Good Ideas,
However I doubt they are going to nerf it at all. It isn't a simple fix like say conjuration with patching what you can soul trap to keep it from being exploitable. Smithing, they would have to redo the entire mechanic of how it works and they won't do that much for a patch. Patches usually only make simple quest and bug fixes. They won't make that much effort for a single player game.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:49 pm

I like how the OP optimistically states "instead"

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:38 pm

Somewhat true. We don't know for sure how much work and space this would actually take.

Well, just remember when you start speaking of fusions of armour / jewellery.... you're talking about multiplying the number of armour pieces / types by the number of jewellery types they could be combined with... in order to get the total number of extra items in the end. It would be a LOT. Seriously. A Massive number of extra items....
And for that amount, I'd prefer other unique armour types instead of a huge plethora of combo-items.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:38 pm

idc much for getting the best weapons and armour, really takes the fun out of the game, and i also think smithing/enchanting is perfect as is, i could make myself op if i wanted (never) or i could keep the challange (maybe even out the master vampire fights)

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:19 pm

Well, just remember when you start speaking of fusions of armour / jewellery.... you're talking about multiplying the number of armour pieces / types by the number of jewellery types they could be combined with... in order to get the total number of extra items in the end. It would be a LOT. Seriously. A Massive number of extra items....
And for that amount, I'd prefer other unique armour types instead of a huge plethora of combo-items.

You could, in the end, just simplify it.

Anything "gold" + armor/weapon would simply give you a "golden" item, i.e. an item with a few designs in it made of gold.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:22 am

I've actually been doing concept work over the last week or so for a mod that addresses a lot of how Smithing is very powerful. I know that my ideas will not be changed in this game or any most likely but here is what I would do (Warning: MUCH longer than it looks):

New Perks (Just rough concept, I haven't checked how balanced it would be yet)

Spoiler

1. Superior Smithing - No Level Requirement
Can improve gear to Superior Quality
No Prerequisite

From here, the tree splits off into 3 paths, A, B, and C.

A1. Exquisite Smithing - Level 25
You can now improve gear to Exquisite Quality
Prerequisite: Superior Smithing

A2. Flawless Smithing - Level 50
You can now improve gear to Flawless Quality
Prerequisite: Exquisite Smithing

A3. Epic Smithing - Level 75
You can now improve gear to Epic Quality
Prerequisite: Flawless Smithing

A4. Legendary Smithing - Level 100
You can now improve gear to Legendary Quality
Prerequisite: Epic Smithing

B1. Arcane Blacksmith - Level 50
Enchanted Gear can now be improved
Prerequisite: Superior Smithing

C1. Improved Joints - Level 25
Improved Movement and Attack Speed while wearing smithed armor (excluding helmet and shield)
Chest/Legs: 2.5% Increase to Movement Speed and Attack Speed
Boots: 2.5% Increase to Movement Speed
Gloves: 2.5% Increase to Attack Speed
Prerequisite: Superior Smithing

C2. Tempered Metal - Level 50
All smithed weapons and armor are slightly lighter and stronger
Prerequisite: Improved Joints

C3. Placeholder - Level 75
Ran out of ideas here, might go up and look at some of Darkside Eric's for ideas.
Prerequisite: Tempered Metal

C4. Recycling - Level 100
You can now break down any item at a forge for a reduced return on materials
Prerequisite: Placeholder

Smithing Related Quests

If you read my perk tree, you see that you know longer learn how to smith new gear based on Perks. But just being able to make everything right off the bat would be ridiculous, so instead I suggest a way to learn the smithing skills through quests. The ideas aren't all complete but here is my list (Keep in mind that Level is in regards to Smithing Level, not Player Level):

Spoiler

Basic Smithing - Level 0
Same as in the vanilla game, you start able to craft the basic items.

Steel Smithing - Level 0
After you complete the quest http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Blacksmithing_Tutorial, The person you did the quest for teaches you how to smith steel, as a thank you.
Available from Adrianne Avenicci, Alvor, and Lod
Reward: Steel Smithing

Dwarven Smithing - Level 30
You receive a letter via courier from either Tacitus Sallustius or Oengul War-Anvil (chosen at random). The letter offers you a vague proposition, encouraging you to visit them (You can go to the person you don't receive the letter from if you want). Both of them have heard rumors of a Dwemer Forge hidden deep in a Dwemer Ruin, and that there might be instructions on how to make Dwarven Gear. They ask you to go down and retrieve what information you can and in return you can unlock the secrets of forging Dwemer Gear.
Available from Tacitus Sallustius or Oengul War-Anvil
Reward: Dwemer Smithing, Each person now sells Dwaven Equipment (As Tacitus is an apprentice to Ghorza gra-Bagol, she is the one who sells it)

Elven - Level 30
Not finished yet

Orcish - Level 50
After Gaining access to an Orc Stronghold, you can learn how to make Orcish gear from any Orc Stronghold Smith (In the case of Largashbur, which does not have a smith, you can learn it from Chief Yamarz instead)

Reward: Orcish Smithing

Advanced Smithing - Level 50
You receive a letter from the person you learned Steel Smithing from, saying they have learned new techniques they want to show you. Return to them and they will teach you the secrets of Scaled and Plate Armor. If you go to one of the three smiths (from Steel Smithing, above) that you did not do the Blacksmith Tutorial quest for, they will teach you for 1000 Gold. This allows you to learn it even if the person you did the Tutorial for dies, or if you didn't do the tutorial at all.
Prerequisites: Blacksmith Tutorial or 1000 Gold
Reward: Advanced Smithing

Glass - Level 70
Not finished yet

Ebony - Level 80
Not finished yet

Daedric - Level 90
Not finished yet

Dragon - Level 100
After getting to level 100, you can get this quest from any blacksmith in any major city. They ask you to bring them X Dragon Bones and Dragon Scales and they will try and find a way to make Dragon Equipment. If you get them they will learn it with you. If you have not killed a dragon yet, they will merely say in passing "Man I wish someone would find a dragon and slay it. I bet I can make strong armor from it's hide."
Rewards: Dragon Smithing, that vendor will exclusively sell Dragon Bones and Scales (1-2 of each at a time) and some Dragon equipment

Other Notes

Things that didn't fit in the main sections go here

Spoiler

Fletching

You can now fletch arrows, provided you have done the prerequisite smithing quest (above) for that type of smithing. Materials are:
Ingot x 1 (Whatever tier you want to make)
Firewood x 1 (From wood cutting or available from General Merchants and Smiths)
Feathers x 5 (New miscellaneous item. Found in groups of 0-5 on the bodies of Hawks, and 6-15 on the bodies of Hagravens, also available at General Merchants and Smiths)

Jewelry

Allow you to make any kind of ring or jewelry that you currently cannot (Silver Diamond Necklace, Gold Amethyst Ring, etc.). You need regular gems for rings, Flawless Gems for Necklaces. They give the close to the same XP, and their value would be based on materials used. More of a cosmetic change then anything.

Skyforge Steel/Silver Smithing

Allow all weapons to be available in Skyforge Steel and Silver, but only available from specific vendors (Silver from the smiths in Markarth, Skyforge from Eorlund Gray-Mane).

Hiring Smiths to Make/Improve Gear
Basically the same as the OP stated, but in addition to improved gear in the inventory, you can request that they make a weapon for you specially. The cost of the weapon is dependent on the tier and type of the weapon. You can also get a 50% price reduction if you have the materials needed.

Improving gear costs significantly less, but you can only go up one level of improvement at a time, and it gets more expensive for each tier. You cannot provide the materials for a price reduction.

That about sums up my thoughts on this, but I'm just starting out on concept work for this.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:52 am

I've actually been doing concept work over the last week or so for a mod that addresses a lot of how Smithing is very powerful. I know that my ideas will not be changed in this game or any most likely but here is what I would do (Warning: MUCH longer than it looks):

New Perks (Just rough concept, I haven't checked how balanced it would be yet)

Spoiler

1. Superior Smithing - No Level Requirement
Can improve gear to Superior Quality
No Prerequisite

From here, the tree splits off into 3 paths, A, B, and C.

A1. Exquisite Smithing - Level 25
You can now improve gear to Exquisite Quality
Prerequisite: Superior Smithing

A2. Flawless Smithing - Level 50
You can now improve gear to Flawless Quality
Prerequisite: Exquisite Smithing

A3. Epic Smithing - Level 75
You can now improve gear to Epic Quality
Prerequisite: Flawless Smithing

A4. Legendary Smithing - Level 100
You can now improve gear to Legendary Quality
Prerequisite: Epic Smithing

B1. Arcane Blacksmith - Level 50
Enchanted Gear can now be improved
Prerequisite: Superior Smithing

C1. Improved Joints - Level 25
Improved Movement and Attack Speed while wearing smithed armor (excluding helmet and shield)
Chest/Legs: 2.5% Increase to Movement Speed and Attack Speed
Boots: 2.5% Increase to Movement Speed
Gloves: 2.5% Increase to Attack Speed
Prerequisite: Superior Smithing

C2. Tempered Metal - Level 50
All smithed weapons and armor are slightly lighter and stronger
Prerequisite: Improved Joints

C3. Placeholder - Level 75
Ran out of ideas here, might go up and look at some of Darkside Eric's for ideas.
Prerequisite: Tempered Metal

C4. Recycling - Level 100
You can now break down any item at a forge for a reduced return on materials
Prerequisite: Placeholder

Smithing Related Quests

If you read my perk tree, you see that you know longer learn how to smith new gear based on Perks. But just being able to make everything right off the bat would be ridiculous, so instead I suggest a way to learn the smithing skills through quests. The ideas aren't all complete but here is my list (Keep in mind that Level is in regards to Smithing Level, not Player Level):

Spoiler

Basic Smithing - Level 0
Same as in the vanilla game, you start able to craft the basic items.

Steel Smithing - Level 0
After you complete the quest http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Blacksmithing_Tutorial, The person you did the quest for teaches you how to smith steel, as a thank you.
Available from Adrianne Avenicci, Alvor, and Lod
Reward: Steel Smithing

Dwarven Smithing - Level 30
You receive a letter via courier from either Tacitus Sallustius or Oengul War-Anvil (chosen at random). The letter offers you a vague proposition, encouraging you to visit them (You can go to the person you don't receive the letter from if you want). Both of them have heard rumors of a Dwemer Forge hidden deep in a Dwemer Ruin, and that there might be instructions on how to make Dwarven Gear. They ask you to go down and retrieve what information you can and in return you can unlock the secrets of forging Dwemer Gear.
Available from Tacitus Sallustius or Oengul War-Anvil
Reward: Dwemer Smithing, Each person now sells Dwaven Equipment (As Tacitus is an apprentice to Ghorza gra-Bagol, she is the one who sells it)

Elven - Level 30
Not finished yet

Orcish - Level 50
After Gaining access to an Orc Stronghold, you can learn how to make Orcish gear from any Orc Stronghold Smith (In the case of Largashbur, which does not have a smith, you can learn it from Chief Yamarz instead)

Reward: Orcish Smithing

Advanced Smithing - Level 50
You receive a letter from the person you learned Steel Smithing from, saying they have learned new techniques they want to show you. Return to them and they will teach you the secrets of Scaled and Plate Armor. If you go to one of the three smiths (from Steel Smithing, above) that you did not do the Blacksmith Tutorial quest for, they will teach you for 1000 Gold. This allows you to learn it even if the person you did the Tutorial for dies, or if you didn't do the tutorial at all.
Prerequisites: Blacksmith Tutorial or 1000 Gold
Reward: Advanced Smithing

Glass - Level 70
Not finished yet

Ebony - Level 80
Not finished yet

Daedric - Level 90
Not finished yet

Dragon - Level 100
After getting to level 100, you can get this quest from any blacksmith in any major city. They ask you to bring them X Dragon Bones and Dragon Scales and they will try and find a way to make Dragon Equipment. If you get them they will learn it with you. If you have not killed a dragon yet, they will merely say in passing "Man I wish someone would find a dragon and slay it. I bet I can make strong armor from it's hide."
Rewards: Dragon Smithing, that vendor will exclusively sell Dragon Bones and Scales (1-2 of each at a time) and some Dragon equipment

Other Notes

Things that didn't fit in the main sections go here

Spoiler

Jewelry

Allow you to make any kind of ring or jewelry that you currently cannot (Silver Diamond Necklace, Gold Amethyst Ring, etc.). You need regular gems for rings, Flawless Gems for Necklaces. They give the close to the same XP, and their value would be based on materials used. More of a cosmetic change then anything.

Skyforge Steel/Silver Smithing

Allow all weapons to be available in Skyforge Steel and Silver, but only available from specific vendors (Silver from the smiths in Markarth, Skyforge from Eorlund Gray-Mane).

Hiring Smiths to Make/Improve Gear
Basically the same as the OP stated, but in addition to improved gear in the inventory, you can request that they make a weapon for you specially. The cost of the weapon is dependent on the tier and type of the weapon. You can also get a 50% price reduction if you have the materials needed.

Improving gear costs significantly less, but you can only go up one level of improvement at a time, and it gets more expensive for each tier. You cannot provide the materials for a price reduction.

That about sums up my thoughts on this, but I'm just starting out on concept work for this.

Tempered Metal... so, say -5% Weight, +5% damage?

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:09 am

Tempered Metal... so, say -5% Weight, +5% damage?

Something like that. Of course it includes armor too, but that would be -5% Weight, +5% Armor Rating.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:31 pm

I agree, I definitely want smiths for hire. Another reason is people build up a ridiculous amount of dragon bones and scales over time, and if their character doesn't smith, they're pretty much useless (although they fetch a good price). It would be nice if I could give a smith all the materials and pay him a good price to make me some dragon armor.