My buddy from WoW recently bought the game when it was on sale (very briefly) and here is how his game went.

He almost quit at the opening sequence. He could not find out how to make his "class" so he was stuck as an orc warrior. The world is empty and he couldn't find much to fight. He killed a chicken but the townsfolk didn't take kindly to that. Didn't know how to hotkey things, didn't know how to use his special orc power and couldn't figure out whether he had items equipped or not. LOATHED the UI. The lever to open the gate only fired darts at him, at this point he quit. I wonder how he will deal with the dragon claw door.

So my take on this:

1. The game isn't as dumbed down as people complain it is. My friend is by no means stupid but ADHD lol.
2. Bethesda failed to put in a intuitive control system for the PC. At this point I'm surprised they didn't change AWSD to something nonsensical.
3. Morrowind and Oblivion, although tougher at times, were far more simple at discovering how to play the game without a manual. You don't have to pop up messages to show people what button does what but games need to be designed assuming we don't want to read your stinking manual.
4. Stop with the god awful opening sequences. There will be at least 2 very popular mods to at least mod that cart ride out like the removal of the terrible opening dungeon of Oblvion, annoying 'lets play house' of Fallout 3 and hearing that stupid breton yet again in Morrowind. I couldn't stand daggerfall but at least you get to play as soon as you hit play. For some [censored] reason you took out the option to modify your character right before you are let lose on the world.

Most of his happenings are just funny and aren't meant to be anolyzed but the UI problems and the assumption that we want to read your manual is due to downright laziness I guess on everyone's part. However we are the customers, who just want to play. Not fight your UI and search the internet to find out how your game works.

^{New players are often a good benchmark.
No pre-conceived notions of wether its better or worse than last time...but when they just flat outright dont want to learn how things work!}

http://memegenerator.net/cache/instances/400x/12/12304/12599297.jpg

I like the opening sequence. It helps set up the game's backstory. Do I want to go through it every time I make a character? Not really. But I'd rather have that than not have it at all.

RE: #4.

No.

Plop my character into an event and let the game start, I want control asap. If you want it to build into an overlong cart ride that's fine but it needs to be far more interactive.

The decision not to allow you to edit your character like in FO3, FONV and Oblvion is the real problem to this. I shouldn't have to watch the buggy ass dragon attack every time I want to make a new character.

I'm really not here to make a big complaint out of it. It's in awesome game. But there are many steps backwards and crappy design choices like this are why some developers are resorting to these awful forced tutorials. Quest marker is one of the biggest examples of this.

Ummmm. Saying that some lady is pretty but her butt is the size of texas erases all your positive talking points. Telling someone their mother is great but still a [censored], what do you focus on? Do you really care they said she's a great person?

All you kids should stop with that. Stop with the buts and just proceed to the argument.

Very interesting reaction indeed. It reminds me of that monkey experiment. Anyway, have you considered that the game is not for him?
Cause if they make TES more monk... errr wow player-friendly (just kidding) it will be not TES anymore. I already have difficulties on considering it a TES.

your friend does not sound very smart (no offence to him), he couldnt figure out that simple puzzle (such a very very very simple puzzle too)? did he even look around? but he has a point about the ui (the ui should display more information and be easier to use)

I agree. Emphatically. I played through the tutorial opening of Oblivion, Fallout 3 and Fallout: New Vegas once and then saved a game right at the end, so I could just load that up and make whatever character I wanted to play that particular game.

I can't believe Skyrim doesn't do this. I hope one of the very first mods cuts that crap out.

But on your friends first game...I know how he feels. That was the first couple of times I tried to play Morrowind. I wasn't really used to non-linear roleplaying games. They let me off the boat, I made a character, learned how to swing a weapon and cast a spell. And then I was like "um...what now?". I was used to having someone tell me what to do next. It annoyed me. I was just wandering around trying to figure out what the hell I was supposed to be doing. Thinking "who would design a game like this? It's [censored]. Good graphics though..."

The 3rd time I sat down to try to get into it, I finally got it. And after that, it was genius. The best game ever.

I hated some of the changes made in Oblivion at first too. But then it became the best single-player game ever. And Skyrim has won me over. I still don't like the changes, but those negatives don't overpower the positives.

And, yeah, I've been playing WoW since November 2004. But I always quit playing it for 2 or 3 months whenever Elder Scrolls or a Fallout game is released. And then, often go back to them. It's a nice break, to be playing a single player game every now and then. And despite all the complaints I've seen (i've made a few) the games really ARE rich in content, and immersive. Really fun.

He doesn't sound very smart from your post. Couldn't figure out the dart puzzle? Really? Couldn't figure out the inventory?


Seriously. I don't want to just be dumped into a world.

Umm, Skyrim automatically saves right before character creation.

Woah I call BS here buddy. Morrowind has literally no tutorial. It tells you how to pick up a knife and that is it. You're on your own. To claim it was more simple than Skyrim is crazy.

Also, I don't think Bethesda should have to adapt to the likes of someone with ADHD who plays WoW. That isn't a good path to go down.

I guess what I'm saying is who cares what your friend thinks? He obviously didn't put much research into the game, gave it no attention and didn't even attempt to give it a chance. So who cares?

Agreed. Let the people who can't be bothered to research the game mechanics and lore play some other game. It's time we stopped hand-holding people and dumbing-down Skyrim for Bethesda's true fanbase.

Research isn't the term that we should be using. He couldn't be bothered to READ! He didn't even look through the inventory!

Well, he should've at least bothered looking at the manual on basic controls. That counts as research, no matter how basic.

RE#1 The game is definately not dumbed down to appeal to the lowest common denominator of gaming. Skyrim/Oblivion/Fallout 3/Fallout New Vegas are highley detailed experiences where player choiuce is king. These games are designed for folks who want to have a reason to play again. It does not matter if the reason is to join a different side, a different guild, build a different character, or to just try to see the content they missed the first time around. These games are not novice experiences and even for me my first time through Fallout3 (my first game of thie type, i bought Oblivion GOTY after having my mind completely blown by FO3), i was a bit overwhelmed by the freedom i had never experienced before from a game. I have been a die hard fan of every Bethesda published game if i may paraphrase Coach from Left for Dead 2 "i have all thier albums even the new [censored] that is not any good" (The Hunted for the not so good stuff). There is definately a different feel to Skyrim even from Oblivion in some regard, but that is/has to be expected.

RE#2 As far as #2 i think the only thing Bethesda could have done better with the interface was to allow for the control schemes to be set up with the ability to pre load with spells or items each hand. The player could be given a few left and right bubbles kind of like "00" where the player can pre load items or spells into each bubble. The player would have lets say 6 different bubble sets that they could preload how ever they wanted then using the scroll wheel they could cycle through the preloaded bubble sets with out having to go to a menu everytime they wanted to change a spell or item. Simple type hot key setup and i think Oblivion had something similar to this already.


RE#3 As far as number 3 goes to bad so sad, if all else fails read the directions or are you the type to just push buttons on the new gadget you bought in the hopes that the designer was of the same mindset as you. If you choose to stumble around blind well that is only a problem that can be fixed on your end. Sometimes learning to play requires reading a book, and as a former WoW player what is the difference if you read the class forums for hours on end to learn how to tweak your WoW character to be better? Or spend a few moments reading a manual to get the most of the game experience especially considering that your buddy seems to be completely new to the entire Skyrim/FO3/FONV/Oblivion experience to begin with.


RE#4 I can not completely disagree with the bit about the long opening sequence and i am not looking foward to it when i make character number 2. I had the same problem with Mass Effect 2 watching Tim and Miranda yak at great length about stuff for 10 minutes is quite boring the second or third time around. I have NO PROBLEM if the developer insists that i watch the opening sequence once as a matter of fact i do agree that i should have to watch it at least once just to set the mod. I do not play Skyrim, Fallout 3 and New Vegas because of the awesome cut scenes but to shoot stuff in the face root around in its innards and blow up what i can not carry off. So yea i have to agree that there needs to be an allowance made for a second third or however many plays to skip that which they have already seen once before and have no desire to sit through again. Skyrim is not WoW. Skyrim is not Dragon Age. Skyrim is not Oblivion. Skyrim is Skyrim. It is different from most everything else and that makes it worth more to me as a gamer than anything else. Different is not bad, different is not necessarily good either, different is different and that is what i like about Skyrim, it is different.

Asai

Yes, but it's still the tutorial you have to play all the way through, until you come out of the cave with Hadvar. Loading each new game right at the execution to make a new character is just as bad.,..I want to be able to skip ALL of that.

Don't get me wrong, I want it to be there for the first couple characters, for backstory, and to explain basic UI actions. But for the next 50 characters I make, I don't want to play through the dragon attack. Just put me at the end. I could do that in Oblivion, Fallout 3 and Fallout: New Vegas

Yep. Right when you get off the cart. I keep this save file for when I want to create a new character.

You still have to play out the escape sequence, but the good thing is that, unlike Oblivion's opening sequence, you don't have to wait on NPCs. Once (whomever you've escaped with) unties you, you can literally just run through Helgen's Keep without having to fight anyone or anything. Just keep running until you're out. Takes two minutes.

Oh, fair point. I forgot about the save right at the end of Oblivion's opening.

The world is empty? I run from Riften to Ivarstead and come across 10 different encounters on the way (and it's about a 5-10 minute run). If I try to run from an encounter, I don't even get to fully escape the first one before another shows up. The game does have a horrible UI. Your friend does sound pretty dumb, or at least pretty impatient.

I almost peed myself after reading this cause I was laughing so hard. Thank you. truely made my day.

Your friend is just use to WOW's interface, thats the whole problem here, WOW jumps you straight into the game, there is classes in the game only skills. If you start up a new game expecting it to be just like another game, then go play that
one instead. I don't load up knights of the old republic and expect to find anything UI related to Skyrim, one is an MMO and the other is an RPG. I honestly didn't find very much different in UI between oblivion and skyrim except the favorite's list
which I still dont entirely like and would rather have hotkeys from previous games.

But as for dumbed down, it most certainly has for any of us who played Arena and Daggerfall it has most certainly taken a huge leap towards people with slightly shorter attention spans. Almost every quest in Arena had a sense of
accomplishement with it because you had to leave the huge city where you got it, venture out into the massive wilderness and ride around looking at your map for landmarks untill you found the dungeon, just finding the dungeon
took longer then any quest in Skyrim took to finish it. Then going inside you did not have regenerating mana or health, enemies were static you could run into a skeletal champion all decked out in plate armor that was level 30 while
you were still a level 7 apprentice conjurer and if you did manage to find a way to kill it "opening a door summoning things into a room and closing the door, then holding it closed for several hours while your pathetic summoned monsters
slowly slowly chip away at its health) the excitment and personal achievement of having done it was immense because the challenge was so much greater then in today's games. Today you pick up a quest they say go kill this crazy giant man
eating bear. you get there and its a normal bear, same level as you cause its based on your level and you run up and kill it. hurraayy (yawn) go back and claim your reward.

Its less thrilling, too easy, too many way points, not enough exploring, the worlds are smaller, quests are easier, I could go on and on but it generally follows the old story of how your grandpa had to walk to school 4 miles in 3 feet of snow
while you get to ride in a warm car to and from. Those of us that remember the days of Arena and Daggerfall, we remember the joy of accomplishing things in those games as dear warm-hearted memories, something the newer games don't
have. They have been making games in general easier for people like your friend who do not like drastic change or challenges, unfortunatlly the game industry believes they are the majority of income in the gaming industry so they cater
more towards them then us old school TES fans who did enjoy spending an hour or two riding around in the wilderness asking WTH is that Dungeon!?!.....

Morrowind didn't need a tutorial. The controls and ui are very typical of most PC games. Skyrim control scheme isn't that bad but they clearly don't value key assignments and proper customization. My friend hasn't made a decision on the game yet. I'm not claiming Morrowind was a simpler game overall I'm saying the controls/ui were more intuitive. Also basic information was more readily available in the game without having to resort to a manual. He didn't understand the eye symbol 100% but you have something called tool-tips in Morrowind if you mouse over something you get INFORMATION. You have a buff or debuff in morrowind that you can find out very easily what it does. Tell me this is not simpler then having to go into your menu, something a new player may not know to check when he becomes diseased or buffed?


If you were at a friends house and wanted to use their microwave would you expect to use a manual to learn how to use a microwave other than your own? Hell no, not if you been using microwaves your whole life. Here we have an RPG that actually fails to innovate in its genre other than a few fine points and inner game workings. You can't tell me they didn't start scraping so many PC things like tooltips and proper key bindings because of consoles. So a long time PC player expects a pc game to act like a pc game, only to find it's not acting like a PC game at all. There is the frustration of having to read up on something.


That is only a small problem in the game. The map is terrible. There is no indication of what buffs or debuffs you have without going through the menu. You can't see what gear you have on without going through an unsorted menu. Know way to sort your items. Some effects in game indicate they do something but don't list the numbers. Silver sword says it increased damage vs undead but we'll never know without going into the files how much damage that is.


A manual is not a band aid to poor design. Take a look at how skyrim handled teaching the player about blacksmithing, alchemy and enchanting. This was an amazing way to have players learn game mechanics without resorting to a manual. Now a new player may have no idea that you can buy a horse, buy spells from NPCs, take free items from characters that like them etc. etc.. I only know this from following the game and what to expect from previous games. Bethesda is no stranger to introducing the game in an immersive way and it needs to be done for many other things.


Like I said I didn't mean for all of this to be anaylyzed I just thought it was a funny take. The game feels empty in terms of what to fight comapared to most games but this is obviously by design. I told him exactly where to find stuff to fight. Impatient is the right word, no reason to insult because X person doesn't have same tolerance for certain games.


I was laughing hard, though not in his face, when we talked. As for it being dumbed down, I don't doubt that but people exaggerate because for a new player it's not something you can just pick up right away. I think Bethesda was aiming on expanding through simplification but they honestly failed on several points outlined by my friend's experience. Hyping the game up probably worked wonders for them and I think there was no real reason for them to dumb down these mechanics. I don't mind lack of attributes but stuff like gear repair takes so much away from the game. For instance if you beat someones armor enough you eventually started doing more damage to them.

I do hate how they took out the chance to change your character before you leave the cave.

I don't understand why some just want to jump in the world and play. Maybe it's the playstile (probably also use fast-travel all the time, jump from city to city to pick and deliver quests, etc...). In my case, I like immersion, and this being an open world, sandbox and RPG, I rather take things with complete calm and no hurries at all... The opening sequence is perfect for me, as I like to sit and enjoy, as if I'm inside a movie or something... you get a glimpse of the world you're gonna live on, and also get started in the storyline about Stormcloacks, Empire, Dragons, etc... Well, of course, if you create 10 character in one month, then it may be a bit boring.

Anyway this game is not for those that don't want to get involved in the gameworld, hear what the NPCs have to say, feel their character (roleplay it), etc... people just wanting to run around and do quests clicking to avoid the dialog and following a marker will find the game boring and without content. As your friend said, "there is nothing to kill..." well of course not, it's not Diablo, or WoW, where you just go around leveling up.