This is one of the first and few games in gaming history to have a primary coop focus - something that myself and my wife have been sitting on the edge of our seats waiting for.

And this is how they depict the main female character? Is this how they sell their game? Bouncing briasts, thongs, and stripper-gear?

Would it have been such a blow to their marketing to portray a dignified yet attractive female lead, who isn't catering to the every lustful need of the male audience?

More degradation, and new lower limits set on the treatment of female characters in gaming. Shameful, incredibly shameful to publish this, coming from the developer of such amazing female-friendly games as Fallout 3 and Elder Scrolls - games that not only make women feel welcome in gaming, but also make a great effort to draw dignified and characterized women rather than six doll props.


What a novelty - female sixual degradation in an action game. I hope it was worth alienating a great majority of female gamers! Thanks for your unique contribution, little indie dev - you've really set yourself apart from Portal's Chell with this.



My proposed solution is to treat female gamers with respect and dignity, and to not transform every female lead character into a stripped, sixually degraded game-pormstar. For examples of such a terribly difficult feat to pull off - you can look through Bethesda's groundbreaking, game of the year releases. Pants, clothes, a focus on gameplay rather than jiggle physics. Maybe next time, huh.

I for one welcome our new stripperiffic briast jiggling women overlords in thong armor

I am a girl gamer and I don't mind it one bit. Imagine Conan for a moment, always clad in full plate mail. I don't think he would have the same appeal nor do I hear gamers complaining about his 'costume design'.

I appreciate your take on it, but it's important to recognize that currently you're not allowed much choice in whether you play as sixually objectified female or not.. So we can't compare it to Conan, no, and we're not at the point where we can say "I like this style of character because I choose to." Because no choice is involved - since sixualized female characters like this are virtually everywhere, with few options otherwise. sixual objectification is standard for female characters; it is anticipated and normal. Can we say that for male characters?

There are a great variety of fantasy-genre male characters who don't cater to the specific sixual tastes of a female audience, and characters like Conan stress not only the sixuality of their body, but also his utility in battle. What does the accentuation of E'lara's briasts, her sixy thong, or her inner thighs suggest about her capacity as a warrior? What do those features tell us about her character? That she is a six object, hand-crafted as a utility for the sixual gratification of the viewer. She is not a Conan warrior, not a strong, independent female lead - but a six object. That's what the game designers are telling us when they focus her design specifically and exclusively on her body, briasts, and ass. She's no longer depicting a "person" to us - she's a six prop.

It's important to look at not only the amount of clothing a character wears, but the purpose of that clothing. Conan's dress demonstrates his strength as a warrior as well as his attractiveness - E'lara's dress demonstrates her sixuality, her sixiness, her large briasts, her vulnerability, and her tight sixy abs. She is a six prop, not a character. She may seem cool, and the notion of her character may be fun, but her purpose is ultimately as a six prop.

We're also discussing this in the context of a widespread and historically consistent scarcity of dignified female leads in games. We can't easily say, "oh, well it's not a big deal and she's still cool." For as long as we accept, nurture, and condone the sixual objectification of female characters in gaming, then we will see little else, and character design will continue to stagnate. inXile could have taken the opportunity to provide a strong, independent female lead to girl gamers and draw us all a creative, interesting character. Instead, they opted to satisfy the sixual needs of male gamers, again, in yet another game that confine women to the role of six object/eye candy.

http://www.apa.org/pi/women/programs/girls/report.aspx It talks about the damaging developmental effects of presenting young women with sixual objectification in every female character depicted, throughout many forms of media.

edit: And if anyone still has trouble seeing what I mean: http://www.huntedthegame.com/index.php/en/index. Caddoc's angry, empowered face is making a war cry upfront. E'lara's legs are spread open with her briasts stretched out, in the back. But there's no sixual objectification here, and this does not send any damaging or distorted message about gender to the audience.

I believe I understand your point of view, but I'm not sure I agree with it.
In a (very brief) summarisation, you're saying a potentially strong female lead-role in a game that's wearing skimpy and essentially impractical armor along with her posture and briast physics have made her sixualised to the point it's harmful to girls.

From an opposing viewpoint, what about Caddoc's objectification? I have no doubt he doesn't talk about his feelings and/or cries at any point during the game so he's the stoic hero that has no emotions, is this not damaging to boys in the same regards?

Of course it's not as that's how most male heroes are in most popular action films. Female heroes in most popular action films also have moments where they're baring skin or their clothing is short, but the audience still thinks they're awesome.

I suggest not taking it so seriously and if it disappoints/disturbs you to the point it makes the game uncomfortable to play, mod it to your liking. It's based on the Unreal Engine 3 of which there would be a plethora of resources available for skinning. Or vote with your wallet and don't buy it.

I think people find strength in different things and in the end what you take away from a design is a reflection of yourself. Take for instance a Giger painting. Some people will look at it and see a cool spaceship and wires, others will see giant genitals. In the end you can view the decision to make her showing a lot of skin the safe choice OR you could view the decision to make her all covered up the safe choice. See how it can go both ways?

Hmmm...this is a interesting post. You've make a good point. Surely we want to build our own character, make them look more even just like the way we want them. As a modern fantasy role playing game. It's "odd" that you can't customize your character. But this is how it's done. This is how Caddoc and E'lara looks like. Wonder Caddoc would say "Hey I want hair!", E'lara would say "It ruins the balance!".

As I think. InXile want the players to find, feel, realize then truly love the both character, the story and the game it self. But still, think it would be great if we could custome the sub part, like tatto and accessories.

Thanks for summarizing. It's also important to see that sixualization, in itself, does not necessarily need to be harmful. Many interesting female characters are sixual or sixy while not being self-denigrating (e.g. characters like Morrigan from Dragon Age). It's also important to see that women can be sixy without dressing like six workers. This is a constant message fed to the audience by game developers: that the only sixuality women can possess is in a degrading position catering to the male audience. http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Veronica_Santangelo Was that game worse for it? Did the audience suffer for it? Did we lose out on the sixual degradation, somehow?



E'lara likely does not cry or talk about her feelings, either. These are traits that our culture puts forth as strong, useful, and mature. A warrior withholding their feelings is a virtue; so while stoicism is maladaptive, yes, so is being an elven warrior. This is also a gender role that we choose to teach in the home, in school, and in the workplace. It's embedded in our culture - games can't say much of that. Is sixual objectification a virtue taught to women at home, at school, and in the workplace? Is it a virtue at all? The objectifying features that we're talking about for Caddoc are, simultaneously, the basic virtues of manhood. Again, the question: is being a sixual object the exclusive virtue of womanhood?

Is there a good reason for this being the primary characteristic in female gaming characters? Why don't we apply the same design principle to male chars (sixual objectification)? My theory is that it upsets gamers to be confronted with a strong female lead that isn't denigrated, relative to them and their male character, in some way. sixual denigration is the developer's method of comforting players feelings of inadequacy and fear of strong women. We saw this in a topic on this board, where people were complaining about being forced to play as a woman. Women are weak, sixually objectified, and useless - so why would I want to denigrate myself by playing one in a videogame?



This is a great point. Female action film heroes have depth and are characterized - they have aspects of sixuality, aspects of strength, aspects of awesomeness and a variety of virtues. Even if they are depicted as sixy (see: the Resident Evil series), or not as sixy (Alien series), the films presents them as real human female people who are dignified, who exist outside of their sixuality, and who have many virtues. What virtues does E'lara primarily demonstrate?

NokiaSe, I agree that customization is preferable to forcing this image of women onto gamers. Mass Effect actually had several sixually suggestive costumes for both the male and female main chars, which were OPTIONAL. It would be great if the developer could offer a separate set of clothing for gamers who don't take to sixual objectification of women, particularly the ones interested in playing a game where a female warrior makes up half the game...

A new set for Seraphine would be nice, too, [snip]

While I agree with some of what you said, this post is irrelevant and has nothing to do with bethesda. Bethesda has nothing to do with the development of this game. Geez the day people figure out the difference between developing and publishing all war will cease to exist.

I specifically used the word "publish" with regard to Bethesda's part in the game. It sounds like you're a bit anxious to criticize people for that without actually reading what is said ... Although they did not develop the game, it is released under their name - a name associated with works that are hallmarks of good characterization and respectful treatment of women. Thanks for your thoughts.

I'm not a fan of skimpy female armor either (or skimpy armor for men but it is less prevalent even if it isn't uncommon). Hunted is far from the worst I've seen but I'm not going to pretend the E'lara couldn't benefit from some extra protection in the chest and abdomen area. At least she isn't being paired with an hulk in full plate, Caddoc is showing off some skin as well, especially his back and arms. More importantly neither is a slab of cheesecake with weapons, from the little banter we've heard they both seem to have well-developed personalities and well-written dialogue; while a little extra coverage may help I don't think E'lara is going to come off as an vapid object for people to drool over. She may not be exactly virtuous in the normal sense of the word but she strikes me as supremely confident and independent, both excellent qualities for a female protagonist.

But I'm getting off track, this is a very reasonable criticism and it's fine to discuss it on the forums but let's make sure the discussion is kept clean and appropriate - I had to remove a remark about Seraphine's . . . midriff, we'll go with midriff, that was a bit more explicit than we like to hear around here.

Doesn't everyone want to be sixually objectified every now and then?,my personal thoughts dwell on the fact she is armed and lethal and not just there for Caddoc to rescue from some evil force.For good or bad mate you're not going to solve such a matter on a gaming forum but your wallet probably will.

@ Hungry Donner

My thoughts exactly!

When I first saw the female character, my first thought wasn't about the way she was dressed but how powerful she looked like she wouldn't take anything from anybody. That, to me, is what is important. That powerful and independent personality.

@shriner
You should only be concerned if Bethesda was actually doing this in their own games. They are not a womens rights group or a christian organization. Their a business whose only purpose is to sell games.

It's fantasy, they can wear whatever they want and I can be turned on by it whenever I want. :hubbahubba:

As male, Seraphine and E'lara both looks attractive, and there is nothing bad about that. And as a men, I underestand what are you talking about. In fact, I'm totally agree with it. So as a player, I think we really need this character customizing feature.

Hmmm...."By players, for players." right? So when is that coming out=D?

A few things... Yes women are overly sixualized in video games, at least in general practice. But this is slowly changing as women become a larger demographic in both the gaming industry and the gaming community. It's a slow process to be sure. I also would like to argue that women in games are far superior to their film counterparts of old. Women, in the dawn of film, were often portrayed as hapless and helpless creatures with simplistic emotional responses. Video games, however, often portray women as a gender of strength and ferocity, albeit scantly clad.

I don't necessarily agree with developers choosing to treat women as the sole sixual gender in games, as I don't agree with developers treating men as emotionally backward man-children. To be sure, both genders are sixual creatures just as both genders have the ability to be emotionally stunted. As you pointed out, Shriner, these are the roles placed on the opposing genders by society at large, not solely by gaming. While developers can choose whether or not to follow existing societal norms, they as individuals are shaped and often defined by the society in which they live. You are asking an industry that combines entertainment and art to take up the banner of the ills that are already a part of society.

You mentioned Morrigan from Dragon Age, I would hardly agree that she was dressed appropriately for battle, I think a better example would be Aveline from Dragon Age 2. And even then, Bioware crafted dozens of women with incredibly disproportionate waists and busts to fill the game world. Mass Effect's females fall into the same category.

And while I find the sixualization of women and the emotional crippling of men in games to be troubling, I would argue that you, as an advlt gamer, are aware of these ills and less like to be swayed by the portrayal of women and men in such a manner. I would personally take greater issue with many handheld games solidifying the existing gender roles of young girls. If DS games are to be believed, women are supposed to babysit, cook (with or with out Mama), teach, ice skate, and design clothes or jewelry. While games like Demon's Forge, Mass Effect, and Dragon Age are consumed by an older and more educated audience, games like Imagine: Fashion Designer, Imagine: Babysitter and a whole host of similarly geared titles are aimed at young impressionable females.

E'lara is clearly a well-written character who is not being degraded to a six object that just jiggles her boobs around. In my opinion, she's exactly like Morrigan from Dragon Age, but actually with less cleavage. I mean come on, the depiction of Morrigan's "I'm not wearing underwear today, only loose stripes of cloth and a necklace" outfit was completely over-the-top.
E'lara at least seems to have some kind of sports bra that is much more suitable for combat.

So that is that. I don't like the cliché characters we often get in fantasy games, and the emancipated warrior woman with big boobs is actually one of the most common. But yeah, it's still a cliché that focuses on portraying an emancipated and strong woman, not the lusty chick from your average porm movie. So I don't see the problem.

I also don't see how this could be harmful or bad influence on anyone. On who exactly? Girls who play games like these are almost certainly not the type of person to see this as cultural pressure to get briast implants. And the boys, unless they're very young, will have realized after years of playing fantasy games that girls in real life only rarely look like that, and that those who do are faaar out of their league.

BTW, comparing this to Fallout 3 or Oblivion doesn't really work. It's a completely different kind of fantasy game, much more classical in its approach. I guess the Conan series might be a big influence. Also don't forget that Oblivion is set in a civilized world, whereas Fallout 3 is set in a post-civilized world where people often still cling to the old values (and those who don't, like Raiders, are consequently shown in more careless outfits).

edit:

What?! What the heck is she then? That's exactly what she is! A strong, independent Conan-like female warrior in a leading role! That's how she is portrayed in every piece of information we got so far! I mean, tell me why you think she isn't all of that, because I actually thought until now that this type of cliché female character is what pisses you off, but now it seems like you're wishing she was all that. Which she is.
If "Conan-like" means "wearing almost nothing", at least. Which it should.

Ya know, there is nothing wrong with fantasy female sixual appeal. No, it doesn't hurt anyone. This sorta silly, "PC" idea that female characters having exaggerated six appeal is somehow harmful is silliness. This is a fantasy video game. The male character is an overly muscle-bound warrior stereotype and the female characters design also falls squarely into the same fantasy female stereotype. There is nothing wrong with that. That is the nature of the genre. If you do not like how men or women are portrayed within movies or games of that type, do not play those games or watch those movies. And it's a video game! Everything is exaggerated to silly proportions in video games. That's part of what makes them fun. I am not expecting reality when I load up a video game or movie. These characters represent a certain ideal within the context of those genres. They are not meant to represent a realistic portrayal of what a real man or woman is supposed to look or act like. I personally love both character designs. I think the female character looks great and the guy like the hard-core warrior I would want to play.

People who are going to be hypersensitive to exaggerated sixual characteristics shouldn't be playing these games. It's the nature of the genre. Enjoy it for what it is, or find other games to play that suit your tastes.

I don't see anything wrong with wanting women to be portrayed as varied individuals, and not just a succession of pinup girls. If you don't tell the genre that you expect more they'll never reach further and the genre can only benefit from variety and depth. While E'lara is dressed in a silly fashion she does appear to have a depth of character so I suspect she is a step in the right direction, and for better or worse she's managed it while maintaining "traditional" fantasy attire.

Actually I though Caddoc's hilt on his sword was a bit disturbing

I like "Jiggling briasts and thong armor" and i cannot lie

OMG your right the briasts must be firm like they've been injected with botox /sarcasm . Though certainly physical activity leads to firmer briasts

As for the armour there are 2 points to make.
1. skimpier armour makes more sense for a character that plays on agility
2. It sells, deal with it.

If all you see are games with objectified women then that's because that's all YOU see. Take a look at games like heavy rain for example.

Maybe he is a fan of woman with flat chests? Maybe we should make the woman a bit uglier, they should have some acne on their face and they should be fat.

LMFAO thats funny right there.and i agree with otheres its how you see it

I agree with the Op in this. as for the little snippit asking for active criticism (a way to make it better) the quickest and easiest way of fixing said issue without adding customisation is to add a couple of costumes.
You'll sell more than you would by only having the one outfit for each character, my girlfriend really doesn't like the look of this game just because the girl is in stripper gear, and i agree.
If it weren't for the girl in stripper gear, you'd pull more audience. simple