*sigh*

Those that use the normal Skyrim Launcher and have installed mods trough SW will see in the right bottom that SW is checking for updates, right! Well Bethesda and Valve could team up and find a way for the authors who upload an update that requires a clean save for whatever reason...to add a message that pops up when you start the Skyrim launcher and checks are made for mod updates. We as mod users should then have the possibility to first exit the Skyrim launcher...do the clean save and then allow the Skyrim launcher to do the update.

Whats the difference if it happens at the launcher or if it happens when you load your game? It sound like a lot of unnecessary work IMO. People should be checking their subscribed mods when they update anyway to at least find out what was included in the update.

LoL First of all, you know very well that a lot off people do not always check what is new.

Second..."unnecessary work in your opinion?" Granted every one is allowed to their own opinion, BUT first having a chance to make a clean save and then have the update happen is more unnecessary then having the update done...then unchecking the mod, restarting the game and making a new save. Exit the game again...activate the mod again and then restart the game again? Hmmm if so then you have a strange way of thinking i guess.

You're going to have to do all of that regardless. No matter if Steam tells you need a clean save or you're told then you load the game. You're going to have to load your game without the mod, save your game, and then reload your game with the mod. You're going to have to go through the same steps to create a clean save regardless. Creating a message box before you launch the game is pointless. We can already create message boxes within the game.

We already have the tools needed to inform the player 'Hey, you need to create a clean save for this mod.', so it's unnecessary to request that Steam somehow do this.

Re-read my posts more carefully Baratan, because it looks to me you do not understand what i mentioned in my previous posts. (At least that is what i am thinking right now.)

You're going to have to clarify what you're saying.

Creating a clean save is something that must be done by the player manually. It's not something the game or Steam can do by themselves. The player must load their game without the mod, save their game, and then load their game with the new version of the mod. This hasn't changed since Morrowind and hasn't changed in Skyrim either.

Now, it doesn't matter if the player is informed that they need to create a clean save at launch or when they load their game. In fact, such information at launch may be inaccurate if the player is using a different save than they did previously with that mod or are creating another character. However, if the message box appears when the game is loaded and the player gets in-game it will be accurate in telling the player that he needs to create a clean save before using that mod. It takes a couple minutes for a mod author to create a message box that pops up when the player loads their game.

Simply put, if a mod author creates a version of their mod that requires a clean save that author should have a message or message box appear when you get in-game telling you to create a clean save. Oblivion mods that required clean saves often did this. It's the mod author's responsibility to inform their players that they need to create a clean save before they can continue. There's no way that Steam can do this on it's own.

The problem with auto update is a good point. I know that for example Mart's Mutant Mod recommended that before you updated it, you'd sleep for 4 days in a place without creatures to make sure the monsters spawns were reset, then disable the mod, load the game and save it (that's the clean save), and only after all that you were supposed to install the new version. Otherwise you could get issues.

If such a mod is set to automatically update without a warning that can be a problem.

Which is the reason why i think that Bethesda and Valve might look at the possibility for authors to add a warning that pops up before the update happens, so that we can make a clean save before updating the Mod. I think it should be possible for them to add that, considering that pop up with adds comes up at times as well. (Whether they will do that is a different matter.)

I do not know if the author has found a solution for it yet, but a good example for losing things for instance is the Dovakiin Hideout. It is also up on SW and if you launch the game through the Skyrim Launcher then the update will get through before you can take the items out of the Hideout...resulting in loosing all that you hat before you even start up the game.

But, it doesn't matter if you're informed of this before or after loading the game. If you load the game and it tells you you need a clean save to use the new version of a particular mod it isn't any different than being told this at the launcher.

You load your game. Get informed you need to create a clean save. Exit the game. Disable the mod. Load your game. Sleep 4 days. Save your game. Exit the game. Enable the mod. Load your game. You're going to have to do this whether or not the launcher informs you or you're informed in-game. We already have in-game tools to inform players. We don't need the launcher to have pop ups as well.

Erm correct me if I'm wrong (and I really don't think I am) but by that point it will be to late, the auto update would have already downloaded and installed the newer version of the mod so creating a clean save at the point would be pointless as the damage would already be done. Take BBC for instance...you cant update that doing a clean save while still in a city, it is suggested (and for good reason) to go in to a cave not affected by BBC then do your clean save...if your in the middle of the Imperial City and a clean save is required for the next update but the auto update of Steam Workshop downloads and installs the mod how is that not going to damage game, the only possible way if resolving that is to roll back some save and end up losing progress which is what I can see happening should any mod that may require a clean save at any point be uploaded to Workshop weather your informed or not.

Auto update = bad idea

The damage wouldn't be done. Damage to your save doesn't occur until you save your game with the damaging data.
Lets say I have a 2.0 version of my mod and a 1.0 version of my mod. You previously used 1.0 in your save. You launch Skyrim and the auto update feature upgrades it to 2.0 automatically. You load your save game and you get the message box telling you to create a clean save. Now, you don't save your game right now. You exit Skyrim. You unload 2.0 and load your game again without any version of my mod loaded and create a clean save. Then you exit and enable 2.0 You're good to go. If when going from 1.0 to 2.0 you get the message box telling you to create a clean save and then you disregard the message and simply play & save anyway, that's on you.

Well, in crash_oxide's scenario you wouldn't be able to load your savegame anymore, or any save in an affected zone at all. That's likely his point.

My main issue with this whole auto-update is not adding possibilities for mod authors to include such a warning popup or anything, no...
...but my question is "what's wrong with being ASKED?"

I already disallow any such stupid activity on my system to Windows, Mac OSX or any other piece of software which thinks it could do anything without "asking" me for my permission beforehand. If there wasn't a way to make it "ask" prior to performing its "auto-update", I won't be using these programs.

So, again, was it really that hard to make it so Steam "ASKS" me before doing any such potentially-dangerous nonsense to my perfectly self-controlled, clean and stable installations?

Take note I don't even possess Steam, so maybe I shouldn't even speak up here.
But being in the software business and having spent 10 years of my life at university for an Applied Computer Sciences Diploma, I myself would never "dare" denying the option to be "asked" to users of my software products. It just totally contradicts any User Interface Design Principles I was educated in.

It matters though if it erases all your stuff in containers etc...

@Baratan,
I don't know how long you've been playing a modded game but I give you this scenario from another similar thread http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1346579-steam-workshop-good-or-bad-for-mods-in-the-long-run/page__view__findpost__p__20295754
This is already happening and is only going to get worse unless steps are taken NOW.
It's no little matter and under present conditions can't be avoided by the player.

What scenario?

That does matter. You're right. But if they're going to delete containers they should give a heads-up. Such changes are very uncommon in between mod versions.

And here we got another good point. You won't even notice any such "heads-up" of mod authors, because your Steam will have downloaded and applied the update already, even before you get a chance to read it.
And it's not that uncommon, if you consider simply adding another item into a mod-added chest's default contents will be enough for the game to reset its stored contents to start fresh already.

I'd still prefer being notified and asked "before" the update gets downloaded. But I can't imagine Valve not taking care of this issue at one point or another anyways. After all, after the 5000th savegame being destroyed, items worth a couple hundred game hours lost and people starting to unsubscribe from any mods they might have checked for this sole reason, they at least should notice there's something wrong with it... and make it "optional".

Wait, how are save games being destroyed?

I have Ultimate Mod v1. After several hours of play I have a save where my character is in a custom spot that only exists in the mod.
Ultimate Mod v2 is released on Steamworks.
I start the launcher which downloads v2, deletes v1 and loads the game.
I immediately crash loading the save.
I uninstall v2 and try again, same result.
I go looking for v1 and it's nowhere to be found.
I have to discard the save and go back to a much earlier point.
I calmly ponder why I chose to use a mod delivery system designed by %#$@#$^&%& of @#$@#@#%% and $#@#%@#%@#

This happened to me in F:NV luckily I had the old version on hand. Maybe Skyrim has added something that moves you to a generic place if where you are no longer exists. What about all the genius' who rely on auto save and immediately run outside?

In some cases a scripted message is too late. Valve should add a message defined by author to pop up that won't continue with the installation until you click OK with options for Update Later, Don't Update. Or a way to revert an update and save.

Problem is -- when you need a clean save if the mod files have already been replaced you can not load your current save in order to make a clean one -- Since loading the save and keeping you items that are stored in chest from that mod requires loading a save with that mod active and since the files have already been updated automatically by Steam you no longer have the old esp file to load the game with -- so your stuck -- Either you load the game with the new mod loaded and lose all your items stored in chests -- OR you deselect the esp to make a clean save and lose all your items in chests it adds -- Either way you lose all your items that are in chests the mod adds since you can not just load the game with the old esp create a new clean save (by removing items from the containers) - download the new version and activate it and replace the items.

Since creating the Clean save requires having the old esp file so that you can load the game with the items that the mod places which have your items in them in your save file -- exchanging the esp with one that removes the chest means you lose those items.

THis is just one example of problems but there are many other cases like Weather mods that can not be changed when one of the weathers from the mod is currently in use or the game save becomes unloadable, etc.

That shouldn't happen just because you're in a place that exists in a mod which has been removed. In this case your character should be teleported to a 'safe cell' as is dictated by the Skyrim.ini. Is there a safe cell designated in the Skyrim.ini if not it's a bug.

YES But the thing you are missing is the OLD ESP FILE is needed in order to create the clean save !!! -- IF you no longer have the old esp (which you would in other cases but not with Steam auto updates -- you can not create the clean save so it is already too late !!

I think the frequency of mod updates that require a clean save is being overblown here, but even more rare is the case where you have a mod update that not only requires a clean save but can't be uninstalled without breaking something or making you lose a critical item or container. I don't know what kind of crazy mods you guys are using, but I have nothing like that installed. The benefits of auto-updating mods far outweigh those outlier scenarios.

In any case, if you don't want a mod to auto-update, just unsubscribe from it. When you unsubscribe it will be deactivated in the launcher. Just re-select it under Data Files and you are good to go. You can even single out your crazy, clean save no uninstall mega mods to not be updated and leave your well-designed mods to continue with updates. *snicker*

As in FO3, Oblivion and apparently F:NV. Luckily the there are no bugs anywhere in Skyrim or other data (modded Perks in F03) that could possibly effect save game loading.

It goes beyond the clean save thing though that's a worst case. If a major update is pushed then a message saying hey check out the changes and see if you want it should be displayed. If two mods merge tell us we can remove the other. If a clean save is required let us know. If a change has been made that breaks compatibility with another mod let us know. A simple pop with a changelog, a few notes and OK, Later, Unsubscribe options would be great and leaves nothing in the air. It's good for the users and it'll be very good for the authors sanity (see skyui's comments). Five mods get updated now there is a problem, I'm sure all the users who couldn't figure out how to copy/paste three files are going to calmly and methodically hunt it down before going to the authors page and carefully detailing the things they did to his/her mother the night before.

How about we end Baratan's clueless babbling with an actual, though less extreme, example.

In Dovahkiin Hideout, you can put your quest rewards and stuff in a new basemant area.

The mod updates frequently with minor additions and fixes, but occasionally, the author warns the player to grab all their stuff out of the hideout before installing a major update, because it will clean out everything inside.

With Steam Workshop, the player never gets such a warning; the mod will update automatically and when the player enters the hideout, all their hard-earned items will have disappeared.

Now imagine if the mod were something more extensive than a new room, like a creature overhaul. That's when the crashes happen.