Although this was posted in the PC section of Hardware/Software Problems, I think it's better fitting here:

Do you agree or disagree and why?

There are articles about this issue online as well but I think this really needs to be addressed -- Skyrim as a world has captured various realistic elements like social tendencies and taboos. At the end of the day, however, these all should be means to a moral end -- the presence of gods and goddesses along with politics should contribute to a moral development, not merely moral obscurity and choice that do not lead to a beneficial or even concrete result.

For instance, there is no reward apart from money to fight against the Dark Brotherhood or to prevent the rise of the Thieve's Guild. Since there is so much morality motivating these quests, shouldn't there be as many in-depth quests that "protect" the morality of the Empire or further the moral mission of the Stormcloaks? I find that I am simply doing everything there is to do and killing and so forth simply because it's part of the game and, as a result, I am unfortunately constantly aware that I am playing a game instead of immersing myself in a new world and in my character and in the plotline. Since there are no actual moral repercussions of doing good over evil (or evil over good), I'm motivated by my desire to get my money's worth out of this game and do everything for the sake of doing it instead of actually trying to cultivate my character in the world of Skyrim.

I may be digressing here but two great games and examples that utilized morality to excel the player's commitment and involvement in the game were (1) Metal Gear Solid with the things like vengeance underlined by love in regards to Meryll and (2) Final Fantasy VII with vengeance and friendship/love and community motivating the plotline -- my decisions in these games were incredibly active to the storyline and I had the choice to be a [censored]-bag or friendly, knowing that they would contribute heavily to the plotline. Furthermore, the morality in the game encourages me to get involved, however, with a game with such potential like Skyrim, I am constantly reminded that this is just a game so I can mess around or steal whatever I want or kill whomever I want without any repercussions apart from money. What if I want to be a very good person in Skyrim and "fight for the people" and do good and be rewarded in that (not with money) but with stature, just like the results of compromising those ethics and joining a darker side of Skyrim?

What do you think?

I agree in part but you seem to be complaining that it's a game that feels like playing a game.

Also FFVII is one of the most linear games I've ever played.

TES it's not a proper RPG. The C&C components are close to zero. Think of it like a Grand Theft Auto into a fantasy setting.

Final Fantasy 7, really? But I see your point. I imagine that to have a quest that transcends the 'go here, kill that, return this to me' and overlaps into the area of real involvement badly needs a competent writer, the less the better to muddle the vision. I think The Witcher ( the first game ) answered this challenge and succeeded because the author of the books was gifted with the imagination to make his world make sense and the creativity to write his characters to think and behave like individuals rather than a set of instructions to lead you to the next goal.

Hm that's actually a pretty good point. Skyrim is tough because it has all this intrinsic potential to be a moral game but then again, it isn't because of stuff like \/ (see below)


Yeah I never played the Witcher or Fable series but I heard they do better justice to how good or how evil you can become. Some good points there.

In the end, yes it's a complaint and yes, Skyrim is not an RPG so good points there. Otherwise, you're right in that FF7 is linear but it was one of the first of its kind that gave you a moral dilemma to be nice to Tifa or Aerieth (whatever the spelling) -- remember the date in Golden City/Game/WTF place is called? Just saying that stuff like that really brings the game to life and for games with so much playtime and potential like Skyrim, I'd like to know that I'm fighting for something and a cause... not just cus there is a billion things to do.

Hmm... you could come away from the Skyrim experience with the sense that there wasn't a morally fulfilling objective, I suppose. In Skyrim, the choices you make do not have far-reaching consequences from a moral standpoint, i.e., I can pay some guard off without having to face jail for my crimes, nor feel the hatred of the stares of the inhabitants of the city i just robbed, or perhaps even murdered in. But in the end, we could be overthinking things a bit. Yes, it does ruin immersion to know that you won't be truly held accountable and this is just a game... but's that's just the thing: it IS just a game.

But you could choose to go the other way entirely with this idea, and say to yourself: "Wow, Skyrim did it right. My morality truly is just what I want to make of it." You CAN choose to be a hero-type and never steal a single Septim, eschewing the Thieves and Assassins to do only "Good" things like exterminating dangerous bandits and walloping on dragons who terrorize the countryside. This is that open-ended freedom TES is famous for... which can be interpreted as shallow in comparison to other games more focused on plot and more restrictive in scope. But then again, you might be forgetting that true heroism does not pat itself on the back. What can be more heroic, really, than the lone adventurer who faces impossible odds and danger at every turn for nothing in the way of accolades and honor from his fellow men? All the "real" heroes I've ever known in real life were never celebrated nor rewarded for their sacrifices... perhaps Skyrim is too realistic.

-Loth

That text hurt my eyes.

To add to this, for true choice through writing the storymakers have to anticipate my morality. How is a Bethesda writer supposed to know that I want to kill Talos worshippers simply because I enjoy using the law as my false cause to distribute loss of life and suffering to their relatives. There are so many different kinds of roleplayers who want their moralities satisfied that it would be an overwhelming demand on Bethesda writers to touch base with them and write in all these branching options. Not to mention confusing. For every path they try to satisfy there would need a resolution that makes sense so that it doesn't seem forced and gaudy and doesn't conflict with something else.

What if I wanted to help the Thalmor by reporting Talos-worshipping terrorists? A whole faction and setting would have to be cobbled into Skyrim just for my request. So rather than use their wealth to accommodate my preference, they point us to the Creation Kit to be released in January. I have recently enjoyed an Oblivion mod called Servant of the Dawn, which allowed me to give that pompous Jauffre what he had coming to him.

The benefits to doing the "Destroy the Dark Brotherhood" quest are not readily apparent until you've done a playthrough doing all the Dark Brotherhood quests.
3000g might seem like the only reward you'll get, but you still get the use of their sanctuary, all their gear you loot from them, and many NPCs that are used in DB quests as targets are left alive, which is important since they are necessary in other side quests.

Either way there are sacrifices for things the other way would sacrifice. And both turn out to be the will of Sithis anyhoo. ha haaaaa

I was posting the same sentiment, but my Intertubes hit an air bubble.

Yeah... no more bright white, please.
-Loth

It's funny, but I have the white forum style and it took me a while to figure out there was anything written in the OP's giant blank post.

What bothers me is that the game seems to force you to do things that could be considered "immoral'" I play a "good" character. I don't kill anything that doesn't try to kill me first. But the game keeps trying to force me to do so. For example, in order to be able to destroy the Dark Brotherhood, you first must commit a murder. (Though the b**** deserved it, it's still murder.) I started the "Forsworn Conspiracy" quest, ended up in prison, only to discover that in order to escape, I had to commit another murder (I wasn't powerful enough to kill the forsworn leader without my equipment.) I reloaded an earlier save and avoided the quest, wasting about an hour or so of play time.

Mine as well. So I didn't read past the first paragraph.

Good discussion in this thread.

What Bethesda should have anticipated, but didn't really accommodate in Skyrim's current iteration, is that a lot of people will probably want to play through as a "good guy". Unfortunately, most of the current quest content forces you to either be evil or morally ambiguous. Mods will fix this, no doubt, but it's a valid complaint in the meantime.

The OP touched on something that I felt was lacking from Morrowind and Oblivion as well-- the Radiant AI doesn't do a good job of recognizing and reacting appropriately to a player's reputation. For instance, in both Morrowind and Oblivion, toward the end of my play through, my "good" character should have been the most famous person in all of Tamriel; but NPCs continued to treat me like a level 1 nobody. Occasionally one would comment on one of my accomplishments, but there was no sense that my saving the world/ becoming Grand Champion, Guild Master, etc. had any affect on the world.

One of my Oblivion characters was evil incarnate-- the Listener for the Dark Brotherhood, vampire, etc. It would have been nice to see some fear or respect from the NPCs, but guards still curled their lips and called me names as I walked by. Apparently the AI could recognize that I was evil, but it couldn't realize that open disdain is not a good way to treat a suspected mass murderer. Needless to say, I had to kill a lot of stupid guards in Oblivion.