Topic

The phrase "black and white" is about good and evil.

And you wrote the following at the beginning of the other thread:



So yes, you are doing a black and white thing with the morality of the game's factions.

Wrong, sir, wrong! It was made clear that only Autumn knew that Eden was actually a computer. If the soldiers all knew he was a computer and agreed with him, why would Eden give the LW the vial? Why give something that valuable to someone who has no motivation to follow through on your plan?

Well, the real answer is just that the Fallout 3 storyline was garbage and that a ZAX computer wouldn't actually make such a stupid mistake. With the information presented in Fo3, however, my argument stands. You're sure the Enclave rank and file all want mutated humans wiped out? How can you know that? There is no dialogue with enclave soldiers, so it seems like you're just projecting what you want them to think onto them to support your case. We have no way of knowing what they were thinking behind their power armor, except that they chose to follow the ambitious man who wanted to rule, not the mad computer that wanted to wipe everyone else out.

Organization goals and views can and do change, as evidenced by the glaring differences between the east and western Brotherhood.

why else would the humans rebel against their president if Col. Autumn doesnt tell them they have been following a computer? Why would the rest of the Enclave automatically side with Autumn? My presumptions of the Enclave agenda come from their 200 year quest to rid the wastes of mutated beings.

All you hear is Autumn countermanding the order of his superior officer, and the soldiers obey. It could be that they believe in Autumn because they know and respect him.. but if you're suggesting they all already hold ideals opposing Autumn's defecting, broken Enclave ideals, why don't they rebel or at least side with the superior commander? How does Eden being a computer detract from his goals if they are the same as the rank and file Enclave drones? Why would Eden need to work with Autumn at all?

Saying "Well, they won't follow a computer, that's why." doesn't hold water because there is no evidence any of them found out about Eden's nature until the self destruct sequence.

By "black and white" I meant good or evil. I've avoided that. When I listed my own opinions of the factions, I was listing them with labels in comparison to each other scaled by their actions. If you want to nitpick about it, yes... I did use the words good and evil. The point I've been trying to get across, which to my dismay you seem to be missing, is that the Legion is more evil than the other factions based on their actions. They are not totally evil, but more evil than others. Here... So you get the gist of what I'm saying:


_____________________Legion_______NCR_______________________FotA________
<-------------------------------------------------------------|------------------------------------------------------------->
Evil_______________________________Neutral____________________________Good


That's about where I'd put them. See? A scale.

the rank and file Enclave's attitude is "yeah, we do some bad things, BUT..." ok you can justify almost anything, but they are in the Enclave because they agree with the Enclave's ultimate aims, even if they are uncomfortable about the methods at times.

Which is EXACTLY the same as the NCR. Different aims, similar methods. Which one is good, and which one is bad, depends entirely on your own point of view.

With all these post-apocalyptic factions, the ends justify the means: basic rule of survival. Whether you're Enclave, NCR, BOS, Fiends, Khans, Kings, Followers..

The Enclave will always be remembered as the group that wanted to eradicate all mutated life, not "remember that one time that one guy tried to circumvent the prez...and failed miserably?" For 200 years the enclave wanted to eradicate mutants. Only in its twilight years did its agenda differ. The NCR are nothing like the Enclave, which I believe is the meaning of this whole conversation.

He didn't fail miserably to get control of the Enclave, he was the one giving commands and being obeyed. By your own logic the Brotherhood on the east coast must always be remembered as those [censored]s who steal your pew pew lasers, despite their shift in attitude. My point was that the NCR taking by force something that doesn't belong to them is the same (equally evil) as the Enclave's taking of project purity.



So now at least we agree the agenda did change? Good, then my point is proven. I wasn't trying to establish that as a whole the organizations were similar, but draw a parallel between a specific action of the Enclave in Fallout 3 and the actions of the NCR in the Mohave.

The Col. is either dead, or alive but his whole force wiped out. How didn't he fail miserably? Taking something from someone else isnt evil.

Your contention was that the Enclave's goal as a whole was to kill all non-Enclave, and my assertion was that this was not the case and that Colonel Autumn successfully redirected focus to taking control of and ruling the Capital Wasteland. His goal shift was an obvious success, he just didn't meet that goal.

Taking something from someone else isn't evil? Well, to each his own, but almost every first world nation disagrees and puts people in jail for taking things that don't belong to them. Just saying.

Not to mention Col. Autumn held no authority with the rest of the Enclave (The ones in Broken Steal) who's agenda was the same as its ever been. Stealing may be wrong but its not evil. Lets not even get into religious morality though.

It depends on the context of the theft, and I'm not religious. Perhaps a better phrasing would be stealing 'can' be evil. Stealing to eat, or stealing medicine for your kids is a morally good thing to do. Killing members of the Brotherhood to steal a power plant that they brought online and got functional is, however, an evil act. Good for the brotherhood for setting traps and shutting it all down.

Back on point, however, Autumn had authority up until he deserts or dies.. at which point obviously he is no longer in command. Obviously the Enclave in broken steel would have a new leader in the absence of their old one, that's how the chain of command works.

Back to Broken Steel, though, what did they do wrong in Broken Steel? They were fighting a defensive war for survival at that point.

I would also point out that they had an UNUSED orbital missile barrage that they did not choose to use to wipe out the Citadel, or Rivet City, or the purifier as a bitter payback after their loss. Honestly, that takes some strength of character in whoever decided not to.

Col. Autumn is the only person that want what he wants, as far as we know. as soon as hes gone, or if their is no communication between him and some other force than the Enclaves original agenda proceeds. But still, why would the enclave abandon the president for no reason? Autumn obviously was arousing a coup for sometime. Or it was all a miscommunication and the enclave troops shouldn't of attacked you after the Col. broke chain of command and went against the Prez. Im off of here for the night, we will agree to disagree.

What is with this post limit thing? If the topic gets to big or has to many pages the world stops turning? I mean why in order to continue what is essentially a civil debate must we move to another thread? Does any body mind explaining it? Anyway on topic and to the point.

Taxes are a necessary evil how they are collected makes them more or less evil. But even in that regard sometimes it is counter productive to assess taxes on certain enterprises or individuals. For example I own a successful factory that makes widgets. In order to keep up with demand I need roads to deliver the raw materials to the factory and roads to ship the finished widgets on. I need a stable power grid so that I can run my machines to make widgets. I need an educated or at least a basically trained work force to hire to run the machines that make the widgets. I need some form of accepted currency with which to buy the materials, pay the workers, and receive in return for the widgets my factory produced. All of this is completely possible to do privately. I can build my own power plant at a great initial outlay of money. I can helicopter in raw materials, workers, and resources like natural gas to fuel the power plant I built. All of that is possible but at a greater initial cost which will translate into a higher cost per widget. I can also accept labor, raw materials, and fuel in exchange for my widgets, instead of currency but that will get even more complicated. How many widgets per hour to the factory worker, his boss, per ton of raw materials, per gallon of gasoline? What is the factory worker to do with his pile of widgets, how many for a ham sandwich, for a months rent, I hope you can see where I am going here. Most important all of this requires some one to over see and protect the factory owner, the workers, ensure the community is protected from the manufacturing process by insisting on the proper disposal of the waste left over from the manufacturing process. Is it fair that I have to breathe or drink someone elses poison in order to allow the factory owner to make their money? It is counter productive to assess taxes on my factory and on the profits because as a corporation I DO NOT PAY TAXES, the consumer pays my taxes for me as they are figured into the price of the goods. Hence counter productive and the consumer is in effect taxed twice, once as i pass off the cost of my taxes figuring them into the price of my goods, and then when they actually buy the product as the government extends thier hand to collect thier vig.

Taxes are necessary as they allow the government to provide all of the aforementioned services that foster an environment condusive to industry. By collecting taxes the government and by extension the people collectivize the necessary infrastructure improvements spreading the cost out amongst the populace. Every one pays a little up front so that the rights of all involved are balanced allowing no one side or individual to abuse the other. True some folks do not work at the widget factory, nor do they buy widgets, yet they still pay taxes for roads, schools etc but even in that case they still benefit as the widget factory worker will need to pay rent, buy a ham sandwich, need protection from criminals, or any other service they choose to purchase opening up the economic development for others to create weath and jobs from.

What does this have to do with the original point the OP asked? The major difference between the NCR, and the Legion is in what is collected for taxes. In the NCR life has value as such the taxes collected are exchanged in the form of a stable currency caps or the paper money of the NCR. The currency is a tangible inanimate object, sure the payer will need to trade some time to earn caps, and the amount of caps is based upon the skill the individual has. Most important thought is from what I understand from the lore is that even a sharecropper can hand the boss his hoe, flip the boss the finger, and walk away assuming responsibility for himself again. The Legion collects it’s taxes in lives. You have just become property of the Caesar who can do anything he wants to you, at any time. The options are limited in Caesar’s society in that your Caesar, Caesar’s cannon fodder, or the breeding vessel to produce more of Caesar’s cannon fodder, that is it, period, end of story. Caesar does not tax for money he taxes for lives, basically unlike the NCR which may steal people’s money, Caesar definatly steals people’s lives. I guess the real question is, how much is a life worth? How much is your life worth? The crux of it all is that the value is all a matter of perspective. It is because of the answer to this question that damns Caesar as the definitive evil here, because for all the corruption of the NCR, it is still only money.

Asai

House is obviously the good choice out of the 3 the only bad thing that you do for house is you blow up a particular bunker.

Legion is clearly evil. Anyone can see that and only a fool would deny it. Chaos evil would best describe them.

NCR is the best choice for the wasteland. Sure they can be pretty incompetant like a modern day government but in the end it is better than total anarchy (although idiotic anarchists would refuse but they don't even know what they are talking about in the first place). They are neutral good.

Brotherhood of Steel don't give a crap about rebuilding society and prefer to hoarde all technology for themselves and sit in their bunkers all day. They are lawful neutral.

Followers of the Apocolypse simply want to help everyone. They are clearly good, nothing evil about them. Lawful good.

The Enclave (although not present) want to rebuild society but be in control of it again. They wish to control everyone as a dictatorship and their methods to do this are extreme. Lawful evil.

Mr Houses motives are unclear. Although it is simply known that he wishes to keep control of New Vegas himself. Selfish? Could be seen as so. He isn't good and he doesn't appear evil. Chaotic neutral

That's my opinion anyways.

I wouldn't call Mr. House's motives unclear, his motives are pure and obvious, he does not want control or governments, he simply wants to rebuild Las Vegas, and thus rebuild humanity and the many high grade technological advances being made prior to the war. Mr. House doesnt want you to destroy the NCR, 'You'll know it when it happens' very well proves this. He wants Hoover Dam but he's willing to lease it's power to NCR at end game.(Or at least mine, where I use speech on the legate and the general) The only real murder he makes you commit is on that one faction (who shall remain anonymous) and that is purely out of worry that they would attempt to fight House for his tech, so all of his motives are purely business related. This shows Mr. House is not in the interest of politics, only the preservation of New Vegas.

It's a holdover from the days when this forum was just starting out; back then the servers were weaker and couldn't support threads of 200+ posts without lag. Now it's a tradition that the mods are loath to part with. Much like how the forums are still 13+ when every game since Oblivion is 17+.



Chaotic evil? You're joking. The legion is all about order and discipline. Furthermore, I'd argue that they aren't totally evil. Harsh, brutal yes. Evil? No. Talk to Cass, Raul, and Caesar himself to see why.



Possibly. Bitter Springs and the NCR tendency to absorb other settlements whether they like it or not speaks against any sort of "neutral good" assignment.



Their naivety earns them some bad points.



Beyond the two failed attempts at genocide.

The problem I have with Mr. House is that he doesn't see the threat of the Legion and other anarchic, violent groups when he deliberately weakens the NCR. He only cares about his little paradise, not about the big picture and other peoples' lives in the region. (as made clear by the population next to New Vegas)

But then that is not evil, it just means disinterest. Mr. House probably wouldnt weaken the NCR, but because of them 'trying to steal Vegas from under him' he wants them weakened enough to defeat the Legion, but not to take Vegas from him. Thats why the NCR cannot carry weapons on the Strip, you're just ASKING for a Coup D'etat at that point if you let them carry weapons.

Whats you're take on Mr. House if I may ask? (I like your unbiased opinions)

Sure they have order and discipline within their ranks but it is how they treat other person that is pretty chaotic. Whatever you want to call it, it is very extreme. Slavery for one is extreme and then there is crucifixion. I can't see how this is anything other than plain evil. But like I said, that is how I see them.



Their goal to rebuild society is good. Their methods of doing so however are bad.



Yes I agree they are naive but their motivations are ultimatly pure and good.

The Enclave are way more evil than the NCR. The NCR killed a couple of young & old khan raiders. And that was probably the most evil thing they have done. If the Enclave had their way millions upon millions, young and old, would die.