Need advice on increasing FPS on GTX 580! : V

» Tue May 29, 2012 3:38 am

Hello,

These are my specs before I ask my questions :tongue:

i5-2500k OC'd to 4.2Ghz
ASUS GTX 580 Directcu II (factory clock)
8GB Corsair Vengeance RAM
Samsung Spinpoint F1 HDD
Windows 7 64bit

I use these settings in Skyrim Launcher and Nvidia Control Panel;

Everything on Ultra, except Shadows which is High. FXAA OFF. 1920X1080.
I am using about 30+ texture mods as per listed and installed in the S.T.E.P guide on Skyrim Nexus.
AA and AF in Skyrim Launcher is OFF
8x Supersampling (AA) and AF 16x both set in Nvidia Control Panel. (proven better quality than using the launcher)
Power Management Mode - 'Prefer Maximum Performance'
Texturing filtering - Negative LOD Bias - 'Clamp'
Texture filtering quality - 'High Quality'
Ambient Occlusion - 'Performance' (Quality or High Quality cripples my system).

Ini Tweaks

None other than setting uGridsLoad to 7.

Mods

SkyBoost R4 - Gained about 16FPS using this mod. Highly Recommended.
Realistics Colors and Real Nights - Beautiful, Recommend!

Question

1- In the wilderness I am having a constant 60fps with vsync but several times a minute I am getting little FPS drops to 55-56. Overlooking Whiterun from Dragonreach I get 58fps. This doesn't sound much of a problem but it is causing constant stuttering.

Does anyone know of any ini tweaks I can implement to increase my fps? I can fix this issue myself by turning off Ambient Occlusion, reducing uGridsLoad to 5 or changing Shadows to Medium but I don't want to do that lol. Reducing supersampling to 4x only increase FPS by 1 so not worth changing.

2 - Has anyone found that overclocking the GTX 580 to increase FPS?

I cannot overclock my CPU more as 4.2Ghz is stable but 4.3Ghz shuts down my computer within minutes although I have a market cooler installed. Therefore I might have to look into overclocking my GPU.

» Mon May 28, 2012 2:16 pm

Yah OC'ing these monsters really doesn't do much so I wouldn't bother, perhaps 1FPS or so and the extra fan noise just ain't worth it. Honestly I'd say live without AO, its not really that nice looking and there's far cooler looking things you can transfer the gained performance into l~~ike setting the AF LOD bias to something negative to increase texture crispness~~ something else (sorry missed that on first read). There's also several versions of the ENB engine that do a decent job of enhancing things like the shadows and will even sometimes provide a net gain of FPS vs the usual small but visible hit to it.

I also agree that it doesn't seem to matter what AA or SSAA you use with these guys, they just don't flinch at all.

ED: Oh and sorry but you'd have to post your full skyrimprefs.ini to really get any insight on some tweaks on that front, but basically you're already skirting the 60fps edge so very likely it would be small sacrafices but still sacrafices none the less.

Personally I go for pretty over wasted FPS, if its over 30 I'm happy so I just load on the pretties until the most challenging scenes render around that mark and play from there.

» Mon May 28, 2012 3:54 pm

Thanks for the reply :biggrin:

I've put my ini settings below.

Spoiler

Skyrim ini file

[General]
sLanguage=ENGLISH
uExterior Cell Buffer=64
uGridsToLoad=7
[Display]
fShadowLODMaxStartFade=1000.0
fSpecularLODMaxStartFade=2000.0
fLightLODMaxStartFade=3500.0
iShadowMapResolutionPrimary=2048
bAllowScreenshot=1
[Audio]
fMusicDuckingSeconds=6.0
fMusicUnDuckingSeconds=8.0
fMenuModeFadeOutTime=3.0
fMenuModeFadeInTime=1.0
[Grass]
bAllowCreateGrass=1
bAllowLoadGrass=0
[GeneralWarnings]
SGeneralMasterMismatchWarning=One or more plugins could not find the correct versions of the master files they depend on. Errors may occur during load or game play. Check the "Warnings.txt" file for more information.
[Archive]
sResourceArchiveList=Skyrim - Misc.bsa, Skyrim - Shaders.bsa, Skyrim - Textures.bsa, Skyrim - Interface.bsa, Skyrim - Animations.bsa, Skyrim - Meshes.bsa, Skyrim - Sounds.bsa
sResourceArchiveList2=Skyrim - Voices.bsa, Skyrim - Voicesixtra.bsa
[Combat]
fMagnetismStrafeHeadingMult=0.0
fMagnetismLookingMult=0.0
[Papyrus]
fPostLoadUpdateTimeMS=500.0
bEnableLogging=0
bEnableTrace=0
bLoadDebugInformation=0
[Water]
bReflectLODObjects=1
bReflectLODLand=1
bReflectSky=1
bReflectLODTrees=1

Skyrimprefs ini

[General]
fBrightLightColorB=1.0000
fBrightLightColorG=1.0000
fBrightLightColorR=1.0000
iStoryManagerLoggingEvent=-1
bEnableStoryManagerLogging=0
[Imagespace]
bDoDepthOfField=1
iRadialBlurLevel=2
[Display]
iBlurDeferredShadowMask=1
fInteriorShadowDistance=3000.0000
fShadowDistance=2500.0000
iShadowMapResolutionSecondary=1024
iShadowMapResolutionPrimary=2048
iShadowSplitCount=2
iMaxAnisotropy=1
fLeafAnimDampenDistEnd=4600.0000
fLeafAnimDampenDistStart=3600.0000
fTreesMidLODSwitchDist=3600.0000
fGamma=1.0000
iShadowFilter=3
fDecalLOD2=1500.0000
fDecalLOD1=1000.0000
fSpecularLODStartFade=2000.0000
fShadowLODStartFade=200.0000
fLightLODStartFade=3500.0000
iTexMipMapMinimum=0
iTexMipMapSkip=0
bTransparencyMultisampling=0
iWaterMultiSamples=0
iMultiSample=1
iShadowMode=3
bTreesReceiveShadows=1
bDrawLandShadows=1
bDrawShadows=1
bFull Screen=1
iSize H=1080
iSize W=1920
fMeshLODFadePercentDefault=1.2000
fMeshLODFadeBoundDefault=256.0000
fMeshLODLevel2FadeTreeDistance=2048.0000
fMeshLODLevel1FadeTreeDistance=2844.0000
fMeshLODLevel2FadeDist=10000000.0000
fMeshLODLevel1FadeDist=10000000.0000
iScreenShotIndex=2
bShadowMaskZPrepass=0
bMainZPrepass=0
iMaxSkinDecalsPerFrame=25
iMaxDecalsPerFrame=100
sD3DDevice="NVIDIA GeForce GTX 580"
bFXAAEnabled=0
iShadowMapResolution=1024
fShadowBiasScale=0.3000
iShadowMaskQuarter=3
iAdapter=0
iPresentInterval=1
bFloatPointRenderTarget=1
[Grass]
b30GrassVS=1
fGrassStartFadeDistance=7000.0000
fGrassMaxStartFadeDistance=7000.0000
fGrassMinStartFadeDistance=0.0000
[Water]
iWaterReflectHeight=1024
iWaterReflectWidth=1024
bUseWaterDisplacements=1
bUseWaterRefractions=1
bUseWaterReflections=1
bUseWaterDepth=1
[MAIN]
bGamepadEnable=1
bCrosshairEnabled=1
fHUDOpacity=1.0000
bSaveOnPause=1
bSaveOnTravel=1
bSaveOnWait=1
bSaveOnRest=1
fSkyCellRefFadeDistance=150000.0000
[GamePlay]
bShowFloatingQuestMarkers=1
bShowQuestMarkers=1
iDifficulty=2
[Interface]
bDialogueSubtitles=0
bGeneralSubtitles=0
fMouseCursorSpeed=1.0000
bShowCompass=1
[Controls]
fGamepadHeadingSensitivity=1.9000
fMouseHeadingSensitivity=0.0125
bAlwaysRunByDefault=1
bInvertYValues=0
bGamePadRumble=1
bMouseAcceleration=1
[Particles]
iMaxDesired=750
[SaveGame]
fAutosaveEveryXMins=15.0000
[AudioMenu]
fAudioMasterVolume=1.0000
fVal7=1.0000
uID7=0
fVal6=1.0000
uID6=0
fVal5=1.0000
uID5=0
fVal4=1.0000
uID4=0
fVal3=1.0000
uID3=94881
fVal2=0.4000
uID2=466532
fVal1=1.0000
uID1=554685
fVal0=0.8000
uID0=1007612
[Clouds]
fCloudLevel2Distance=262144.0000
fCloudLevel1Distance=32768.0000
fCloudLevel0Distance=16384.0000
fCloudNearFadeDistance=9000.0000
[TerrainManager]
fTreeLoadDistance=75000.0000
fBlockMaximumDistance=250000.0000
fBlockLevel1Distance=70000.0000
fBlockLevel0Distance=35000.0000
fSplitDistanceMult=1.5000
bShowLODInEditor=0
[NavMesh]
fObstacleAlpha=0.5000
fCoverSideHighAlpha=0.8000
fCoverSideLowAlpha=0.6500
fEdgeFullAlpha=1.0000
fEdgeHighAlpha=0.7500
fEdgeLowAlpha=0.5000
fTriangleFullAlpha=0.7000
fTriangleHighAlpha=0.3500
fTriangleLowAlpha=0.2000
fLedgeBoxHalfHeight=25.0000
fEdgeDistFromVert=10.0000
fEdgeThickness=10.0000
fPointSize=2.5000
[Trees]
bRenderSkinnedTrees=1
uiMaxSkinnedTreesToRender=20
[Decals]
uMaxDecals=1000
bDecals=1
bSkinnedDecals=1
uMaxSkinDecals=100
uMaxSkinDecalsPerActor=60
[LOD]
fLODFadeOutMultObjects=15.0000
fLODFadeOutMultItems=15.0000
fLODFadeOutMultActors=15.0000
fLODFadeOutMultSkyCell=1.0000
[Launcher]
bEnableFileSelection=1
bShowAllResolutions=1
uLastAspectRatio=3
[BlurShaderHDR]
bDoHighDynamicRange=1
[BlurShader]
bUseBlurShader=0

I really like Ambient Occlusion, it makes objects look more real not like they are all floating on surfaces. Shame about the FPS hit though and the flickering on objects it causes while moving. I might have to give this up or change my shadows if ini tweaks wont help.

» Mon May 28, 2012 2:55 pm

My set-up is similar, and I'm doing STEP with SES-ENB. 2 things come to mind:

1) look at your LOD for outdoor shadows...I reduced this to 1500 from 4000 and found a significant fps impact.
2) your stuttering is a complicated problem that can be somewhat reduced by creating more fps over-head, but you didn't make any mention of fps limiters in play. Rather than go with the viable but imperfect windowed mod, I'd be applying an fps limiter to get that stutter under control. Once you do that, the 'dips' to fps in the low 50s won't bother you much (my guess is that the dips aren't as problematic as a lack of smoothness that is accompanying those dips outdoors). Once you do this, you may be able to press that SSAO quality button, or better yet jump to an ENB-based shader for superior AO.

» Mon May 28, 2012 6:23 pm

Right off the bat:
fShadowBiasScale=0.3000
That guy can be a tiny bit lower, try out say 0.25, it'll make more shadows out of smaller things the smaller you go and the lower you make it the less you need AO to make up ground object shadows, win win :smile:

Like I run with it at .15 and with the ENB engine I'm using combined into that all my plants etc have their own shadows, AO really just gets in the way at that point.

Then find those three shadow map sizes and double them, I run with all three at 4096 and while yes its a hit to the vram usage I've found it strangely enough lets things run smoother by giving the shadow engine more to play with on that front, this goes hand in hand with shrinking that biasscale value.

» Mon May 28, 2012 3:00 pm

My set-up is similar, and I'm doing STEP with SES-ENB. 2 things come to mind:

1) look at your LOD for outdoor shadows...I reduced this to 1500 from 4000 and found a significant fps impact.
2) your stuttering is a complicated problem that can be somewhat reduced by creating more fps over-head, but you didn't make any mention of fps limiters in play. Rather than go with the viable but imperfect windowed mod, I'd be applying an fps limiter to get that stutter under control. Once you do that, the 'dips' to fps in the low 50s won't bother you much (my guess is that the dips aren't as problematic as a lack of smoothness that is accompanying those dips outdoors). Once you do this, you may be able to press that SSAO quality button, or better yet jump to an ENB-based shader for superior AO.

I will try your LOD tweak tomorrow.

I tried moments ago using FPS Limiter and although I installed it correctly it will still give me 60fps when the default is supposed to be 30 and I checked the antilag file and it did state 30. I also limited my fps using the latest version on Nvidia Inspector to 30fps but this lag was horrible, even when I tried 40fps. This game seems to lag horribly if lower than 60fps. Has it got to do with me not setting ipresentinterval to 0?

Also, what ENB do you recommend?

Right off the bat:
fShadowBiasScale=0.3000
That guy can be a tiny bit lower, try out say 0.25, it'll make more shadows out of smaller things the smaller you go and the lower you make it the less you need AO to make up ground object shadows, win win :smile:

Like I run with it at .15 and with the ENB engine I'm using combined into that all my plants etc have their own shadows, AO really just gets in the way at that point.

Then find those three shadow map sizes and double them, I run with all three at 4096 and while yes its a hit to the vram usage I've found it strangely enough lets things run smoother by giving the shadow engine more to play with on that front, this goes hand in hand with shrinking that biasscale value.

I will try your tweaks tomorrow thanks. I am really tired at the now and need bed

» Mon May 28, 2012 11:09 pm

I'm currently using this ENB:
http://www.skyrimnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=4463

There tend to be two general camps of them and lots of splinters. One camp is all white-wash lighting and very dark darks and that's my preferred style (and that link's too), the other camp tends to aim at over-saturated colour and I'm just not a fan of orange-red fires and plant life that looks more like a spell effect personally. To each their own though

» Tue May 29, 2012 5:01 am

I will try your LOD tweak tomorrow.

I tried moments ago using FPS Limiter and although I installed it correctly it will still give me 60fps when the default is supposed to be 30 and I checked the antilag file and it did state 30. I also limited my fps using the latest version on Nvidia Inspector to 30fps but this lag was horrible, even when I tried 40fps. This game seems to lag horribly if lower than 60fps. Has it got to do with me not setting ipresentinterval to 0?

Also, what ENB do you recommend?

I will try your tweaks tomorrow thanks. I am really tired at the now and need bed :smile:

1) I set my fps limiter to 64...I'm looking for a 'sweet spot' that takes into consideration my monitor refresh rate, a good high fps, and the 64 hz Bethesda bug (you can search for more info on that)....my sweet spot just happens to be 64, where the stutters go away.

2) Leave iPresentInterval at 1.

3) ENB mods are very much a matter of taste (some have lots of contrast, some lots of bloom, some saturation etc etc). I like "Skyrim Enhanced Shaders (SES)" because it looks good and the modder is a 24/7 nutcase kindof guy who provides ridiculous levels of support and tweaks, and those that use it are very active in helping others. Extra ENB bonus - it has an fps limiter built in that you can set even in decimal places...I use this.

» Mon May 28, 2012 5:46 pm

...with vsync but several times a minute I am getting little FPS drops to 55-56. Overlooking Whiterun from Dragonreach I get 58fps

1.This is impossible. If you have a 60Hz display, the only values for fps can be 60 or 30 (or less), rounded down. So limiting fps to 59, with vsync the game will have constant 30fps.
2. 580gtx is not godmode. If fps suffers, decrease details quality.
3. SSAA is the heaviest AA. And not really better today. Switch to other AA's for fps.
4. Vsync on will always lag, sometimes more sometimes less, because it delays output.

» Mon May 28, 2012 2:21 pm

1.This is impossible. If you have a 60Hz display, the only values for fps can be 60 or 30 (or less), rounded down. So limiting fps to 59, with vsync the game will have constant 30fps.
2. 580gtx is not godmode. If fps suffers, decrease details quality.
3. SSAA is the heaviest AA. And not really better today. Switch to other AA's for fps.
4. Vsync on will always lag, sometimes more sometimes less, because it delays output.

1. Not true at all. I have a 60 hz display. For poop and giggles, I set my fps limiter to 50, then took the following screenie (normally, this scene goes to around 60fps for me):
http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/1329/50fpslimiter.jpg (note the framerate in corner). I have vsync on. Your info is not correct.

3. This is a very good point...SSAA eats fps.

» Tue May 29, 2012 4:08 am

1.This is impossible. If you have a 60Hz display, the only values for fps can be 60 or 30 (or less), rounded down. So limiting fps to 59, with vsync the game will have constant 30fps.

» Mon May 28, 2012 3:15 pm

Right off the bat:
fShadowBiasScale=0.3000
That guy can be a tiny bit lower, try out say 0.25, it'll make more shadows out of smaller things the smaller you go and the lower you make it the less you need AO to make up ground object shadows, win win :smile:

Like I run with it at .15 and with the ENB engine I'm using combined into that all my plants etc have their own shadows, AO really just gets in the way at that point.

Then find those three shadow map sizes and double them, I run with all three at 4096 and while yes its a hit to the vram usage I've found it strangely enough lets things run smoother by giving the shadow engine more to play with on that front, this goes hand in hand with shrinking that biasscale value.

Hi!

I have made your adjustments to the shadow bias and map sizes and they look good and no performance hit. I've taken your advice and turned AO off as the frequent stuttering is annoying although I did like the look of it.

Thanks!

» Mon May 28, 2012 10:04 pm

1.This is impossible. If you have a 60Hz display, the only values for fps can be 60 or 30 (or less), rounded down. So limiting fps to 59, with vsync the game will have constant 30fps. 2. 580gtx is not godmode. If fps suffers, decrease details quality. 3. SSAA is the heaviest AA. And not really better today. Switch to other AA's for fps. 4. Vsync on will always lag, sometimes more sometimes less, because it delays output.

1. Thanks I forgot about this

... even though it may state say 58fps it is actually only running at 30fps because that's how vsync worked, totally forgot about this which explains why 1fps lower than 60fps gives stuttering.

2. You're right. I keep thinking that since I spent a fortune on this card that it should do everything especially Skyrim with its old engine but the engine is too insufficient to get much out of it.

3. Which other AA can I use other than SSAA? In the Nvidia Panel under Antialiasing - Transparency I have only options 'Off', 'Multisample' and then 2x, 4x, 6x SSAA.

4. Should I turn vsync off? I was having the problem previously with constant slowdowns because I keep alternating from 100fps down to 60fps every 10 seconds so it was causing stuttering.

» Mon May 28, 2012 8:17 pm

1.This is impossible. If you have a 60Hz display, the only values for fps can be 60 or 30 (or less), rounded down. So limiting fps to 59, with vsync the game will have constant 30fps.

No. I've used FPS limiters before, you can set it to whatever you want and the game will run appropriately. Either your computer is acting up, or you never even tried this yourself.

As for tweaking for 580, before you start thinking of overclocking it, have you used a program to monitor your GPU usage in game? Try downloading GPU-Z, going to the Sesnors tab, checking the box on the bottom that says to keep recording when GPU-Z is in the background, and play Skyrim for a bit and run around in areas where your framerate drops. Check back with GPU-Z and look at your GPU Usage. If you're not sitting at 98-99%, then you're card isn't getting fully worked out and you don't need to overclock.

Looking at your settings, you just have the game settings cranked up so high I don't know how much smoother your game can get. This game is seriously CPU limited, so even if you eliminated all the GPU bottlenecks, you'll still probably see some slowdowns. This is the same engine that powered Morrowind. Even though they've been tweaking it over the years, and even gave it a fancy new name, it's still not up to par with newer engines when taking advantage of new hardware, and the game was designed for the XBOX 360 and ported to PC.

» Mon May 28, 2012 11:07 pm

1. Thanks I forgot about this :tongue:

... even though it may state say 58fps it is actually only running at 30fps because that's how vsync worked, totally forgot about this which explains why 1fps lower than 60fps gives stuttering.
..........
3. Which other AA can I use other than SSAA? In the Nvidia Panel under Antialiasing - Transparency I have only options 'Off', 'Multisample' and then 2x, 4x, 6x SSAA.

4. Should I turn vsync off? I was having the problem previously with constant slowdowns because I keep alternating from 100fps down to 60fps every 10 seconds so it was causing stuttering.

1. You've been given bad advice.

3. Transparency AA is an fps pig...you have to dial all this down...have you actually done screenies to see the differences? There are thresholds where 1% increase in quality will cost you 20% performance, so you have to realize that pressing these amounts have big performance consquences. Instead, try 4xMSAA (or 8xCSAA) in the "antialiasing" box, and 2xSSAA in the transparency box.

4. your fps fluxes and stutters are not related like that

» Mon May 28, 2012 9:38 pm

Hi!

I have made your adjustments to the shadow bias and map sizes and they look good and no performance hit. I've taken your advice and turned AO off as the frequent stuttering is annoying although I did like the look of it.

Thanks!

Good times

Btw I took one more look to see if there was anything else I could suggest:
fGrassStartFadeDistance=7000.0000
fGrassMaxStartFadeDistance=7000.0000

That's how far out your grass is loaded, since you're running a higher then standard ugrid you may want to bump that up, make the starfade perhaps 10K and the maxstartfade 15K and see how that goes. Ideally you'll see grass showing up further away from you (out to the full 7x7 grid distance). There is a limit to how high that actually influences things though, putting t hem at say 50K/50K wouldn't do any more since ultimately grass is loaded by the ugrid range.

» Mon May 28, 2012 6:35 pm

1. Not true at all. I have a 60 hz display. For poop and giggles, I set my fps limiter to 50, then took the following screenie (normally, this scene goes to around 60fps for me):
http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/1329/50fpslimiter.jpg (note the framerate in corner). I have vsync on. Your info is not correct.

It doesnt matter what the game shows. Only valid values here are 60fps and 30fps, aka it can only display a frame every 16.6ms or every 33.3ms. "Fps" is just an average of the number of frames rendered per one second. Lower than 60fps, some of the frames are displayed at the rate of 30fps, which you, logically, perceive as stuttering.

» Tue May 29, 2012 12:36 am

It doesnt matter what the game shows. Only valid values here are 60fps and 30fps, aka it can only display a frame every 16.6ms or every 33.3ms. "Fps" is just an average of the number of frames rendered per one second. Lower than 60fps, some of the frames are displayed at the rate of 30fps, which you, logically, perceive as stuttering.

OK, this is interesting...I'm going to test to better understand what you are saying

» Mon May 28, 2012 11:28 pm

OK, this is interesting...I'm going to test to better understand what you are saying

Wouldn't bother, this is the guy who professed about '32bit colour' being a meaningless term and 32 is only used because its a 'round number'. Lol.

LCDs will just draw the previous frame in its /sec cycle if it hasn't been given a new one, it won't just drop to half refresh rate because the feed is somewhere north of 30 but not quite 60 (if its a 60hz).

» Mon May 28, 2012 4:21 pm

LCDs will just draw the previous frame in its /sec cycle if it hasn't been given a new one, it won't just drop to half refresh rate because the feed is somewhere north of 30 but not quite 60 (if its a 60hz).

It won't really draw the previous frame again - you're thinking of a scanning display like the old CRTs. LCD don't scan so don't need to refresh, they change only when they need to display different information (unless you have one of the old black frame inserting displays which attempted to mimic CRTs by drawing a black frame between refreshes.)

The quickest they can refresh is the refresh rate ie 16.6ms or 60hz. If V-sync is enabled and you don't manage to render a new frame in buffer within 16.6ms then it has to wait for the next refresh, ie another 16.6ms. That totals 33ms between when you started to render and when the frame buffer is finally flipped to the live display. 33ms is 30fps, so tricky frames are indeed rendered at 30fps. That won't be noticeable as stutter however, and you're correct that if the frame buffer isn't finished the signal is to draw the same frame again - the LCD just doesn't do anything with it :tongue:

» Mon May 28, 2012 9:46 pm

Bah you're right they do just kind sit there and shrug on a missed frame, doh forgot about that aspect

» Mon May 28, 2012 11:31 pm

BumpInTheNight is on the roll today, with wikipedia being down and all.

» Mon May 28, 2012 9:39 pm

It won't really draw the previous frame again - you're thinking of a scanning display like the old CRTs. LCD don't scan so don't need to refresh, they change only when they need to display different information (unless you have one of the old black frame inserting displays which attempted to mimic CRTs by drawing a black frame between refreshes.)

The quickest they can refresh is the refresh rate ie 16.6ms or 60hz. If V-sync is enabled and you don't manage to render a new frame in buffer within 16.6ms then it has to wait for the next refresh, ie another 16.6ms. That totals 33ms between when you started to render and when the frame buffer is finally flipped to the live display. 33ms is 30fps, so tricky frames are indeed rendered at 30fps. That won't be noticeable as stutter however, and you're correct that if the frame buffer isn't finished the signal is to draw the same frame again - the LCD just doesn't do anything with it :tongue:

ok sorry to derail here, OP...

I realize that what 'actually' happens in a game and what appears on the monitor are different. So, I set my FRAPs to recording at an odd number - 40fps. I set my fps limiter to an odd number - 40fps. So then I recording a scene that would normally be flying by at 60fps for me. Fraps showed 40fps recording. After this, I opened up the clip in VDUB, and was a little surprised by what I saw.

3 out of about every 4 frames were key [K] frames. Then, a delta [ ] frame would appear...an exact copy of previous frame. The pattern repeated throughout whole 20 second clip. So, for fun, I deleted the delta frames, and re-rendered the .avi then dropped original clip and new clip into Vegas. Of course, new (delta removed) clip was 1/4 shorter. After re-rendering it all in standard youtube 30fps (and with any sampling disabled so no 'filler' frames were artificially created), then viewing it, the new clip was smoother looking, although it did look a little un-naturally fast. This is predictable.

However, in line with what you are saying, regardless of what I'm setting the limiter at, the game is actually only creating (roughly) 30 unique action frames per second when I set the limiter to 40. Now, I am definitely not an expert in monitors, so the implications of this are kindof lost on me and how it relates to refreshes. But, to be honest, now I'm not sure of anything LOL

» Tue May 29, 2012 12:29 am

ok sorry to derail here, OP...

I realize that what 'actually' happens in a game and what appears on the monitor are different. So, I set my FRAPs to recording at an odd number - 40fps. I set my fps limiter to an odd number - 40fps. So then I recording a scene that would normally be flying by at 60fps for me. Fraps showed 40fps recording. After this, I opened up the clip in VDUB, and was a little surprised by what I saw.

3 out of about every 4 frames were key [K] frames. Then, a delta [ ] frame would appear...an exact copy of previous frame. The pattern repeated throughout whole 20 second clip. So, for fun, I deleted the delta frames, and re-rendered the .avi then dropped original clip and new clip into Vegas. Of course, new (delta removed) clip was 1/4 shorter. After re-rendering it all in standard youtube 30fps (and with any sampling disabled so no 'filler' frames were artificially created), then viewing it, the new clip was smoother looking, although it did look a little un-naturally fast. This is predictable.

However, in line with what you are saying, regardless of what I'm setting the limiter at, the game is actually only creating (roughly) 30 unique action frames per second when I set the limiter to 40. Now, I am definitely not an expert in monitors, so the implications of this are kindof lost on me and how it relates to refreshes. But, to be honest, now I'm not sure of anything LOL :smile:

Actually your 40fps recording is probably what's causing this. If the game is actually running at 30fps (as far as the frame buffer is concerned, which is where the image will be captured) due to V-Sync, then when you record at 40fps you will only get 30 unique frames, and will have 10 captures where the frame hasn't changed before you take another snap of the frame buffer. Which is the 3 in 4 that you notice.

The fps limiter isn't really coming into play except to prevent you from hitting 60fps, at which point because of V-Sync you drop to 30fps.

When you play back that movie at 40fps it will look exactly the same as playing the game at 30fps. If you play back the movie at a different speed then it will look slightly not right, due to the duplicate frames.. but you can't just delete them, because the action after a duplicate frame will have moved on an extra 25ms.

» Mon May 28, 2012 4:11 pm

BumpInTheNight is on the roll today, with wikipedia being down and all.

Don't really need wikipedia to remind me how useful triple buffering is at completely ignoring that 60->30 drop at sub 60fps with vsync. Sorry but when fraps says 50fps I know its 50fps between vsync and triple-buffering. At this point it should be a given that if you use one you should be using the other as well if a game in any way chances on dropping beneath the 60fps threshold.