I tough about it for some time now. The Greybeards are teachers of the Way of the Voice. They learned it from their master - Paarthurnax. The teachings are a way of meditation (?) and it's forbidden to use the Voice to harm others.

Here is the thing.

I don't know how these old monks choose people worthy to be learned the Thu'um but they clearly failed. One moment a guy is learning the Voice and sometime later he is shouting to death The High King of Skyrim. Great job isn't it? It's a clear lack of respect and betrayal of trust.

Makes me wonder why should I let them all live. These peace rumblings are good until someone gets hurt.

Individuals are responsible for their own choices and actions. If someone learns how to shout, but doesn't practice the Way of The Voice, then the consequences are on the individual and have nothing to do with The Greybeards.

Ulfric supposedly only learned Unrelenting Force before leaving to go fight in The Great War, so if he never learned another shout, he couldn't have killed High King Torygg with his Thu'um.

But don't you think there should be some Oath or something? Or they just let anyone in with enough strenght?

I think that any Nord has the right to request training in the Thu'um from The Greybeards. I personally don't think of The Greybeards as an order who wish to convert others to their philosophies, even though they believe themselves to be right. There is also the philosophy of attempting to follow the right path yourself, and to allow others to choose their own paths, and make their own mistakes. I see The Greybeards as more like this, and less like the kind of order who would impose their beliefs on others.

Spreading knowledge is still a good thing, even if some individuals use that knowledge for wrong doing. I don't see how The Greybeards (or any teacher) could be responsible for what a student does with knowledge, especially when The Greybeards also caution and educate you about the pitfalls of abusing power.

Theres a few things thats fishy to me when u combine the 3. Nords all used the thuum in battle all the time until they lost a war, the leader went all philospial on them and ventured up to the mountain that paar was sitting on. Now paar had been mediating to suppress his need to go out and dominate all the nords that were shouting their enemys to death and seeing how paar was one of the few left at the time mets up with their leader. I have a feeling that paar influenced or convinced him that the thuum that was blessed to mer as a weapon should not be used as a weapon. Hence the leader prevailed and it dwindled down to a select few who know the thuum but they will not use it as a weapon.


Just sounds really suspious to me. Personally ulfric was all for the life as a greybeard but when it came down to it, he realized that he had this power that would help his fellow man and why should he stay up in the mountain and not use it?

As for using the thuum in the duel with the high king, bah they all knew that ulfric used the thuum and the thuum wasnt Nd isnt Co.sidered magic by the nords but as a weapon. The greybeards are respected and feared because they have the thuum and they have the nords most powerful weapon. If the thuum was considered magic tje greybeards would not be respected.
Besides he didnt need the thuum to win or cheat, id say it was used for 2 reasons. Oneit was used as a statement to the world that nords with thuums are back and powerful and pissed. And id say the second reason was since he problemly could have killed the king quickly and quite easily, it saved the king from having an embarrassing death and having one were he was braved and took a thuum to the face and then died by sword....ow ya I forgot in most provendences they dont talk about the duel or being slain by sword. Nice propaganda.

I don't think the greybeards will accept just anyone though. If you're some war general and you come up there and ask for training, they'll probably turn you away. Ulfric was chosen by the greybeards as an apprentice because they saw in him a bloodthirsty monster who wants to kill all non-nords. Imperials forever! a child that showed respect and potential. If you ever talk to him you learn he still values their teachings highly and would've been content to stay there had the war not broken out. If you're looking for power or show hints of wanting to use it for gain they'll be able to tell. Even the altmer that wrote PGE thought the greybeards were the most intelligent men he'd ever met.


I'm really curious as to how Ulfric got chosen by them. Did they just suddenly call for him? I don't recall anything that mentions them ever leaving High Hrothgar. Did he make the pilgramage and they happened to decide "Hey we should take an apprentice, lets keep an eye out on the next few pilgrims."?

Heh, just posted about this in another thread. If you return to Windhelm and speak to him after you start the MQ and have been summoned by the Greybeards, you will get a lot of dialogue options with him about it.

He says that he was chosen by them when he was just a lad and studied there for almost ten years. He left to fight in the Great War because he couldn't bear to stay there and do nothing. He acknowledges that Arngeir has probably never forgiven him for leaving and for his "blasphemy" in using the Thu'um for any purpose other than the worship of Kynareth.

Whether or not he wanted to be a Greybeard and they chose to accept him, or if his family wanted him to be a Greybeard and the Greybeards chose to accept him, or if the Greybeards sought him ought on their own accord and his family agreed to let him begin training with them... we don't know. What he says is that they "chose me" which implies the third option, but in any case it's pretty clear that he was still a child when he went to High Hrothgar. Which means that IMO it's pretty hard to hold him accountable for the fact that he didn't grow up to be the kind of person who could stay there and live that life given what was going on in the world at large ten years later. If he took some kind of oath or vow in order to be accepted as a student, it was one he took as a child, which IMO also limits his accountability. There is a reason that a child can't sign a binding contract - it's because they are children and not presumed to be mature or worldy-wise enough to understand or foresee all the ramifications of it.

IMO if the Greybeards chose or accepted him as a student when he was "just a lad" based on the expectation that he would grow up to be the person they wanted him to be rather than the man he actually became, then that's on their heads and not his.

The Greybeards are intelligent, but I don't think they have the power of foresight.

How could they know Ulfric would use the Thu'um to start a civil war? Obviously at the time they accepted him, he was deemed suitable. That was a mistake, but everyone makes mistakes. Even wise-old-Thu'um-wielding-beard-wearing monks.

Oh, absolutely. I just get tired of hearing the "Ulfric took a vow and broke it" angle as proof of what a despicable person he is. If he took a vow in order to be accepted for training, it was an oath he took as a child or teenager at most unless he is far older in 4E 201 than he appears. I put him in his late 40s, perhaps 50ish, but I think 55 would be pushing it. Even accepting an age range of 50-55 in 4E 201 puts him at 20-25 when the Great War broke out and 10-15 years old when he began his training with the Greybeards. If he's younger than 50, we're talking about a child under the age of 10 being asked to make a lifetime commitment to a way of life for which only a small handful of people are well-suited and who then gets lambasted for changing his mind about it ten years later in the face of what looks like the imminent destruction of his country and his people.

Seriously, if some ten year old kid takes a shine to you and tells you with complete sincerity that he/she wants to marry you someday, you don't hold them to that ten years later when they're all grown up. And you don't get all "but I trusted you, OMG you betrayed me" about it because that would be utterly ridiculous.

If the Greybeards can be forgiven for not knowing that Ulfric would grow up to be someone who couldn't stay on the mountain and live a life of peaceful contemplation while the world burned, then he can be forgiven for not knowing it himself. And again IMO he deserves to be cut even more slack than the Greybeards in this respect because of his age at the time.