All the services you mentioned above can and often are provided better by other private industries, and the costs for those things would only be charged to the consumers that actually use them.

The only service that a government has a productive monopoly on is force, i.e. protection of its citizens from foreign enemies and protection of its citizenry by a police force from criminals. That force should always be reactionary and never initiative and a government may easily subsist on a transaction (sales) tax which insures private transactions will be upheld fairly and impartially as long as it is staying within its rightful arena.




I hate that last phrase. What does money represent, what is it truly at its core? It is representative of the best of your labour that you are able to offer in exchange for the best someone else has to offer. If you don't own that what do you own? Nothing. That is why taxes upon ones income is slavery/

they aren't? they ARE. they see themsselves as the ones to decide whose life is worthy enough to spared, they see weak people as legit prey for those they are supposedly 'strong'.
they enslave and massacre people at theri own leisure.
the legion is a band of bloodthirsty barbarians, led by a delusional punk who's trying to paint him and his followers as the spiritual successors of the first civilized empire for the time, not by nowadays standards.
they are just disgusting.





also their way of treating other factions like the followers, or the khans even after you negiotiated them into assisting ncr put the ncr far away from being 'good' in my eyes.
the ncr is the most moral ambigous faction in this game, and they were pretty well implented to me. i really liked them a lot as long as i was just doing side quests for these poor battered down soldiers.
but things changed pretty quickly once i was introduced to ma'am col moore....





doesn't make them evil at all

Actually... what you fail to grasp is how NOT evil Caesar's Legion is. (-edit- Oh! It's you again! I think I just like debating with you, Freqnasty)


Ancient Rome was the basis for this group... and in fact, the Legion is no more brutal or ruthless than the Romans were.

Rome took and kept slaves from -every- nation they conquered. Every land in their path, any NON-Roman who did not surrender or yield to Roman authority became a slave. These slaves were put to work serving the rest of the community, even shipped across the whole of the Empire to work. They were, by and large, treated abysmally... but the -did- have rights. Even as less-than-citizens, they were granted a right to life and to sustenance.

Eventually, after the completion of the Colosseum, they were even given the option of enlisting as gladiators... fighting to the death for their freedom.

As for the killing and slaughter? Yeah... they did that too. To a Roman, there was nothing more shameful than treachery and weakness. If an enemy was thought to be too impotent or foul to live... they would quite literally kill every last man, woman, and child to prevent the 'plague' of inferiority from spreading.

As for the criminals...

The greatest shame known to a Roman criminal was to be crucified, and put on display for all to see. It was not only symbolic of treachery and weakness... but a means of forcing the criminal to be seen for what he was by all whom he knew and associated with. Not all crucifixions were 'death sentences' either. Some were merely to make an example of dissenters and unruly Plebs.


Ancient Rome was an Empire built on strength, resolve, and a common understanding that Power and Culture were the two strongest forces a nation could wield. They very nearly conquered all of the known world in their time... and are among the most savage, brutal nations ever to grace the Earth. Their atrocities are rivaled only by those of Ancient Greece... and even then, they come out ahead.


Caesar's Legion is no more brutal than the Empire they're modeled after. The Romans believed themselves to be the HEIGHT of civilization... all that which any other civilization could ever -hope- to become... and they earned the right to decide who was and was not unworthy through survival of the fittest. They are the civilization-equivalent of Darwin's Evolutionary Theory.

In contrast, the barbarians and Vikings who sacked Rome and burned her cities while the Empire crumbled are a sign of what a cancer corruption and apathy are to a country who spends too much time at the top of the heap.

hi there again
just one thing: nipton would not have happened in ancient rome. this is what seperates caesars legion from its great example of the ancient past.
apart from that, for the roman empire i already made the restriction 'for their time'
looking on them by the standards of the 21st century, they are pretty barbaric.

Barbaric! Yes.

Evil... evil is subjective. They may seem evil, now... but when they're the ones in power, or if you were to play as a Legion-born bloke... I'm sure the story would be skewed in such a way so as to paint you being the glorious bringers of civilization and authority to the lawless wastes.

sure, if somebody's born into a society that teaches you killing someone just for his way of life (hokers or gamblers like in nipton) is totally fine, then this person would likely be inclined to believe this.
that doesn't change anything about the fact that a vast majority's subjective morale would deem it as what is, however

I concur.

To the NCR, the Legion is -obviously- wicked. They're murderers and barbarous fiends... little worse than raiders, with organization.

But to the Legion, the NCR is a heathen organization bent on domination and expansion, corrupt to the core, and without morals or culture. To the Legion, such men and women are not only an affront to all right-thinking persons... but an insult to the very meaning of Civilization and Humanity. They are little more than barbarians with guns, and must be cleared out of the way that Caesar might lead them to their Rome.

Of course, to the BoS, they're both crazy sons-of-[censored]es... but with their limited numbers and nearly non-existent foothold in the region, there's nothing they can do about it.

So... morally gray... just like the title suggests!

Ahh... Ambiguity. Probably one of my favorite topics.

Here's my two caps. In a setting like Fallout's, it's very hard to distinguish absolutes such as good and evil, so I've all but stopped trying to pin these labels on the various factions within. Sure, Caesar's Legion may seem to be outright evil at first glance, but their ultimate goals aren't that far separated from many other factions considered to be 'good'. Admittedly, though, they're incredibly barbaric and intolerant, and their treatment of women is abhorrent, so from a modern perspective, they're most definitely 'evil', but in the wastes, the worst label I could legitimately give them would be "massive pricks". The NCR, on the whole, is fairly gray. They definitely have their dark spots (Bitter Springs gets brought up an awful lot), and their expansionist attitude certainly isn't winning any friends, but you can't ignore what they're doing for the country. They're doing what they think is best(much like the Legion), and if you speak with it's members, you'll find that, not only does patrolling the Mojave make you wish for a nuclear winter, the majority of them aren't necessarily representative of the big scary organization that some folks in the topic are making them out to be. The Followers are about as close to truly good as you can get in Fallout. Sure, I'll agree with the fellow from earlier in the topic about their naivety, but that in no way makes them evil. Hell, I don't even think I'd call it 'misguided'. Their hearts are in the right place, and their methods are just. Unless I'm missing a few details here and there. I believe I can safely call the Followers of the Apocalypse good. Period.

Very much interested to hear other folks thoughts.

i took this whole thing basically as a reference to contemporary world politics.
you have this nation of supposed non-morale bearers siiting in the west(NCR, as seen by CL), hated by a strengthening movement coming from the east who despise their sinful way of living.
there's quite a bit of that religious zealotry we know from islamic(also christian) fundamentalists in them. interesting and a complete contradiction to the roman way of life, which was VERY open minded towards to the joys of life




honestly, i've happened to like the BoS quite a bit.
sure, there was this, albeit incredibly funny , no-so-warmhearted-welcome, but other than that, mcnamara appeared to be a honest, calm, civilized and bottom line really good natured character, able to admit own failures.
i've certainly expected them to be way more douchy, as they finally ended up.
i know, you're perhaps able to put them into a different direction by ousting mcnamara, but that hardin guy was stinking from second no one
besides the followers, my favorite real faction in the game.
otoh, the only game, were they've been real pri**s was the first one. in fallout 2 they've been pretty nice people already.

Alignments of Factions

NCR: Neutral Good (They protect their citizens and fight for what they believe is right. They have simple laws that're peaceful and noble in act).

Caesar's Legion: Lawful Evil (The ends outweight the means to Caesar. If they have to crucify and skin every man and owman across the wastes to bring peace and a society like Rome to the wasteland, than it's worth it).

Followers of the Apocalypse: Lawful Good (They're always trying to help others, even if it is consequential to them).

Brotherhood of Steel: Lawful Neutral (They simply seek tech and care not for the people one way or another).

Enclave: Lawful Evil (The ends outweigh the means).

House: Neutral Good (He seeks to bring peace to New Vegas and prosperity, even if he has to remove the NCR)


These're simply my views, but...

Locked for review of real life political discussion. It will take some time unless I leave it locked. We'll see.

Sorry folks, too much real world political discussion to wade through on a busy night. If it slows down a tad I'll wade through it all but for now it stays locked.

Discussion of real world politics, taxes (or the legality thereof), and government educational system isn't allowed.

Discussion of in-game politics, taxes (or the legality thereof), and educational system is fine.

Posts went away. Please stay on topic.


Since I noticed questions about why threads are locked when they reach 200 posts, here's the link to the forum rules that people apparently don't read:

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/724862-forum-rules-and-general-information/page__p__10470780&#entry10470780

Contact Gstaff or Nick if you have questions or suggestions about changing that.

i don't think it makes much sense trying to shoehorn entire factions into the D6D alignment system, which was created for individuals.
the NCR has a lot different characters. lafferty and moore to pick 2, are evil.
if you take the basic ideals of the ncr as a blueprint, they should be classified as lawful, they're highly bureaucratic.
the followers like you said are set up to helping people at first, they don't care for laws, and are seen as a group of anarchists. so, chaotic good would be the mostsuitable term for them
mr. house, is by no means a philantropist, he's just interested in himself, chaotic neutral would suit him best.

The problem with the Enclave isn't that it's evil, it's that it's stupid and incompetent. There's nothing wrong with a villain that's pure evil. There are plenty of great villains that have no redeeming qualities like Darkseid, Nurse Ratched, Freddy Kruger, etc. The Enclave could have been written as evil masterminds like Darkseid and they would have been great. However, the writers decided to make them look like a bunch of incompetent buffoons. Meeting the Enclave president really made you wonder how they could have pulled off all their devious schemes for the Great War and the Vaults.

Caesar's Legion are a much better written faction. It doesn't matter if they're not morally gray. What's important is that they're shown to be a formidable foe, or ally if you side with them. They're cunning, efficient, and fearless. The NCR is much more powerful than the Legion but the Legion is able to not only stand up to the NCR but fight them to a stalemate. If Caesar was in charge of the Enclave, they would have easily been able to accomplish their goals.