Congratulations, You just broke the EULA, and possibly the law. If you live in the USA, the DMCA makes it illegal to circumvent copy protection regemes, unless you meet one of the exemptions.

Well I believe you. But Steam is not exactly "dumb resistant" either. You are required certain skill to use it, this thread is example of it. It also example of another thing: it makes things actually more complicated for any user. You have to learn using two softwares instead of one. Single software is always prone to error. If you add another software your chance of something going wrong is doubled. And thats what Steam does to Fallout. And all this while Fallout does not depend one bit on Steam to work. There is no single code which need to be changed.


I don't think those patches are going to be that big, certainly not in GBs. We may check on F3 patches for size as a reference.


That bandwidth is used regardless. Instead of Bethesda its provided by distributor. And customer is one who will pay for it in any case. There is no difference.

That's how most of the software works... from time to time you get a reminder that new version is available and you get two buttons - 'install now', 'remind me latter'. Fair isn't it?

and you really do not need to be smart to press one of the buttons.

sometimes I just want to play a game for 30 minutes and what happens? steam decides to run an update which takes 15 minutes to download.

and the off line mode - sometimes steam needs a connection and it will not let you play the game (don't ask me exactly when, but this happened to me). Imagine that you go for holidays for 3 weeks to a place with no internet access.... how would you feel if steam would lock access to one of your games?


BTW I work as software developer (industry systems) and I know what can people be like, but I also know that some of our customers are smart and they would like to get more from the system. For them we develop extra features and improved algorithms.

best regards,
Wojtek.

I have a hard copy in my hand right now. Is there a different, more expensive version I could get? Is there a version which runs without steam?


thanks,
Wojtek

No.

Take, for example, my ISP. During the Olympics they made the sensible decision to increase their bandwidth, expecting usage to pick up during the what, 2 weeks the games run?

The shortest contracts they could get for this extra bandwidth were for 3 months. So for at least 2/3rds of the time these contracts would be in place, these links would be sitting more or less idle.

When a patch/DLC is released there's obviously going to be big demand in the first week, maybe two weeks. After this you're going to see demand drop off. Assuming that Bethesda did the right thing and ramped up their bandwidth for this, once the initial demand tapers off you're going to have extra bandwidth just sitting there, unrequired, but still eating up costs.

Now lets look at steam. After the big demand, given the large amount of games on the platform there's almost certainly something else that's going to need that bandwidth. The cost can be spread over more titles,.

I don't see how, same people will be patching more or less at the same time. Each time user installs NV from disk, it needs to be patched. It would be perhaps different with electronic distribution exclusively. But its not the case of NV, you have to keep patches online forever.

And why do you think that Bethesda can not do the same thing with their bandwitth?

Do you really think that bandwidth is expensive right now? I think it is the least of the problems.

But in case it really is a problem.... There are other solutions to this... many servers can store and share the pathes... why? because they have advertisemants on their web pages they get money for every visit.

--
Wojtek

And we then run into the problem of people not patching out of ignorance or choice, driving up support costs.

heh I'm actually just looking at what they said on this post



I read it as after you install the game(hard copy) and register it you don't need to be online nor do you need steam. If thats not the case then these statements are misleading and contradictive.

The statement that after you've installed and registered the game on steam you can install it with no restrictions, well if I have to install steam onto all the PC that I want to install the game to then thats a restriction. If thats not the case then how would that work?

edit to add, what if you don't have internet in the first place.. bethesda is basically telling some people we don't want you buying our game. Forcing people to have internet just to play a game is rather bad business.

Not really, if user gets clear information about the update every time he starts the application.

I'm sure that there are many extra calls related to steam, so few extra calls ending with.... please download and install the latest update should not be a problem.


btw Agent_c, It's 1am, You cannot sleep as well?;)


regards,
Wojtek.

Having to install Steam onto any computer where you install the game isn't a restriction. It's a requirement. Same as having Windows and DirectX installed on that PC is a requirement.

As for it being bad business....Beth shipped more than five million copies of the game. I think only they can say whether it was "bad business" or not.

I had to buy a satellite connection service in order to play single player games.... it costs me over $50 a month which is more than I pay for games..... guess I should just stop buying games altogether.

Welll it's getting late and I have few things to do tomorrow... anyway...

It seems to me that the whole conversation going slightly off topic, so I'll try to bring it back to the correct path...

Please let me know if in your opinion it is OK to provide fallout as it is... Is it OK that, we have to install a 3rd party software on our PCs, software that:.

1. Quite often causes installation problems,
2. displays advertisemants even-though we payed for the game
3. automatically installs updates, even when we don't need them,
4. sometimes doesn't work in offline mode
5. collects unspecified information about us - like our gaming habits etc. (i guess I should read terms and conditions, but I'm sure that there's something written with the small letters;) )
6. when steam fails to start, all other steam games are unavailable.
7.... and I just remembered... once i could not install one of the games, because it would only install in the steam folder... unfortunately I didn't have enough space on that partition... after spending 2 hours on the internet I found out that I have to uninstall steam and install it on a larger partition.... crazy isn't it?

as I said... all I want is to play the game I bought. Is that so much?

have a good day/night
Wojtek

I know everytime I purchase a game through STEAM that it is going to be a minimum of 2-3 days before I can actually play the game. It also means that it is 2-3 days of listening to my wife nag me with, "Is there a reason the computer is still on?" while I wait for STEAM to update and the game to install and update.

I like STEAM. I really, really do. But what I hate is how frickin' slow it is.

Although, in the case of NV I bought the Collector's Edition from Best Buy. Came with a disk. I immediately thought, awesome. I can go home and take 15-20 minutes to install and update and then play. Bought it on Friday so I could spend all night playing. Put the disk in and was then promptly slapped in the face by STEAM when it popped up with the "Fallout New Vegas is Downloading" screen. I began to scream expletives at my computer and threw the FO:NV game disk across the living room and exclaimed, "What the [censored] is the [censored]ing point of buying a [censored]ing disk when [censored]ing STEAM is going to [censored]ing download, update and [censored]ing install the game anyway!!!" Then I had to listen to my wife all weekend ask me, "Why is the computer still running?" until Monday morning when it finally finished installing and updating.

I wonder why it took all weekend? I also bought the retail copy rather than the digital version, but it only takes about 15 minutes to install from the disk, and then another 5-10 minutes to update.

To the OP

You are not alone. I even went through the trouble of writing to Bethesda directly. I have made up my mind to not buy this game, unless of course the GOTY comes Steam-Free. I have posted my complaints about Steam in may other "I hate Steam" threads so I will just sum up the highlights here (in the hopes that Bethesda employees are reading these posts).

- I too am an over 30 gamer who doesn't need/want the Steam community features.

- It doesn't save me any money to offer big discounts/sales on games I don't want.

- If I can turn off all the "features" in Steam, why bother with it at all?

- The Steamworks SDK is put into programs very late in development. A Steam-Free retail version is very possible.

- By using Steamworks SDK game companies are forever coupling their products to Steam (even if not purchased through Steam), the more prevalent this becomes the more likely we will see a potentially messy Anti-Trust lawsuit against Steam. The availability of Steam games during such a time is something to consider, especially because your Steam games cannot be transfered to another "service"

- Digital Distribution is a smart business move for game companies and is the shape of things to come, once Steam is out of the way. Steam is to Digital Distribution as AOL was to the Internet.

- According to the official line from Bethesda (including on the back of the box) Steam is required for online verification at the time of installation, this is not true. If Steam is uninstalled NO:NV will no longer function. Steam, a program that many neither need nor want, must be installed and maintained on your computer for as long as you want to play the game.

I already talked about it the day I bought the game, but it won't hurt to do it once more.

The day I bought the game I could not play it because it was not released ... Yes, I could buy a game that was not released ... for the 1st time in 15 years of gaming.
The day I bought it I was happy and coming back home thinking I would spend a good evening playing this wonderful game.
Well actually because Steam decided the game was not released, this evening was completely screwed.

Also, luckily I did not have the OP problem of steam installation.
If I had it, I could not get the hand on a second PC and legit customer should not have the hassle of borrowing a 2nd PC, install steam, transfer the files, ...

As a final note I join the numerous voices, publisher should understand this kind of thing is only a hassle and addition of frustration for legit customer. Nothing else.

As a final note, FO3 did not require steam, so I did not pay attention when I bough FONV.
Had I known steam was required I would never have bought it.
I did not buy Half Life 2 because it was only available on steam, although I was a very big fan of Half Life. And I let alone lots of games that required Steam. And this would have been the case for FONV as well as I mentioned above.

Imarion

Honestly, do you really think that Steam offers no benefit, just problems, or are you willing to admit that you (and I, and the majority of consumers) really have no idea what benefits the game companies get from using Steamworks? You can't even claim that it offers no benefit to the consumer, because a lot of people like Steam and do consider it to have benefits.

Discussing the value of Steam and discussing whether or not it should be optional is a good thing, but the discussion should be based on reality for all parties involved.

There used to be a time when games stopped cold until you entered a copy protection code found in a manual/wheel/chart. And those were soon "cracked" and uploaded to (then) BBS. The solution in not in the past.


And my experience is radically different form yours. My point? Sample pool of 1 or 100 forum posters is meaningless, for many reasons including (but far from limited to) those who came, complained, figured out it was their fault and didn't come back to say it.


That includes you. I'm certain you will find one or two instances of going against your own better judgement to get something now if you do a little soul searching. It's human nature, compounded by a culture that indoctrinates us all to spend, spend big, spend now.

((Note that this is endemic: all governments need only yell "War on terror!" to slash into civic liberties and most citizens do not even blink an eye.))


You're paying "over $50" a month for a service you are absolutely, only, specifically using for gaming? Time to unretire the ole PS2.

I don't mean to be flippant, but your post sounds like an smoker complaining about the cost of cigarettes.



1. Sample space too small: I have had zero problems. Which means . . . nothing. Anecdotes are useless.
2. Went to the movies yesterday: there were 10 MINUTES of ads (not previews, ADS. We had ANOTHER 15 minutes of previews after that) before the show. Which I paid for. Welcome to the 21st century.
3. How do you know? Honestly! How do you know whether an update is unnecessary or not? Forget that: how about when NEW VEGAS was patched with code that flagged all the mobs as "essential" making it impossible to kill any enemy anymore. Is that the "unnecessary" patching you're talking about?

How is that STEAM's problem?

4. see 1
5. Really? You're worried about privacy? Do you have a phone? Electrical/utility bill? Credit card? Facebook? Twitter? Email account? Have you ever given your true info to anyone, ever in your life (only once will be enough)?

If you have, you're tagged. End of story. With $50 and a few hours to waste I'd send you your blood type, my friend, without leaving my chair. And you'll never know because the service I use protects my privacy! You won't even get to know who, when or how anyone got a full profile (social/financial) on you unless you get a court order. STEAM is a model of privacy.

((All this prefectly legit and above board, without the use of any "hacker" or "human flesh".))
6. see 1
7. learn how your programs work; partition properly; you would have the same issue if you tried to install without adequate space, STEAM or no.


I get full games from STEAM in 3 hours. User error.


This happened to me with THE ORANGE BOX. I immediately stopped it, re-ran it. Worked fine.

You MAY have to think. You may have to push a few buttons. You can't expect someone from Beth/Obs will come to your house and hold your hand while the install runs. It's the nature of a computer user to learn how his/her machine works, to keep a minimum of oversight and be proactive. Cause [censored] does and will happen.

And if the worst you have to complain about is your nagging wife I invite you to spend the time locating a 386 so you can see what real install problems are: let's start with DOS bat files, shall we? Then we'll move on to configs. Then the ecstasy of soundblaster compatibility and cdrom command lines. If you haven't turned into a puddle of quivering jelly by then we'll explore custom mem managers and the joys of working with 64K of upper memory.

You got it easy, bud, too easy!

I am a little puzzled why some are so intent on defending steam, there are complaints about it virtually everywhere so the whole 1% thing seems unlikely. People who don't like steam should have the option to play without it. I would have nothing against it if I could uninstall it after my game has been verified, or at least completely disable it until I have a desire to buy a DLC.

Actually, he'd likely have better luck here than from Steam support roflol

I don't want steam, I don't like steam. I don't like games shoving ANY software package down my throat, in order to play the game I just bought. GFWL was an utter fiasco. The number of threads in the hardware/software issue forum regarding it was scary.

Steam does nothing to combat piracy. If you look around, you can download the full game, including expansions, and no steam required. Even the patches come out within days of release.

If steam is such a wonderful distribution method, why then, can we buy a disk? If I buy a disk, why would I need additional software to play the game I just paid for?

What benefits does steam give me, the consumer, (you know, the guy that spends money on the game.....) if I have no interest in ANY of the services they offer? It is a SINGLE player game. I have no desire to socialize with my online buds while I am playing. There are forums for that.

Steam is just a gimmick. Software companies think it is a good idea.... not entirely sure why.... If they want to provide a steam download as an OPTION, that would be reasonable. Requiring the people that buy a disk to install it, and have IT dictate when they can, and cannot play, is not.

1,4 and 6: well lucky you, but please check in internet how many problems people have with steam
2. as I said before - always compare to the better ones, not to the worse ones. not all games use steam and they make good money.
3. I understand that update is sometimes necessary - that's why changeslogs are released. read them... you'll know if you need an update.
4. My good friend never pays in shop with a credit or debit card... never It's his choice and he is happy with it. I don't use facebook, because they don't take peoples privacy seriously. Google will anolyze my account/emails but they still keep acceptable to me level of privacy (I'm serious here). I could also start my own email server. it's not that difficult
5. Partition properly? some people these days use solid state drives, they have limited capacity and they are used only for small applications and small games...
Any normal software let's me choose the destination folder. When I install a steam game I cannot do that. It's not normal. It's a step back to 1995 when windows installation files were primitive.


as to the all DOS problems...Well.. you just compared steam to an operating system from early 90's.... I think this is more than self explaining...


--
Wojtek

so I finally got steam working... next it took about 5 minutes to install the game and then... guess what... 20 minutes to update. Steam decided to upgrade directx on my PC. The funny thing is that directx installer failed, Why? Because I had an old version of the .NET Framework.... so much for automatic update - I had to download and install .net myself.

now something about the game.... I spent probably 20 minutes setting up my character... great fun creating the look of the face:). The game itself looks fantastic and I think I will really enjoy it:D.

It's just such a disappointment that I had to wait 2 days to play it.