For all Ulfric Stormcloak admirers...you'd better be strong! : V - Skyrim

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:59 am

If you read my words you'll notice that i haven't said anything that goes against the argument you just made. And well made by the way :smile:

This wasn't directed towards you, I'm sure you're well versed in what's going on...I'm basically trying to broaden the whole spectrum of what's going on..The parts of the war that most people over look. The fighting may have stopped between the Thalmor and the Empire...but the war is still going on behind the scenes. In other words, the war has went from physical bloodshed, to a battle that involves wit, strategy and political influence.

I admit, Ulfric is a tool and only made things harder for the resistance to overthrow the Thalmor...but in all actuality, regardless of which side you pick, the Thalmor still come out on top.

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:43 pm

This wasn't directed towards you, I'm sure you're well versed in what's going on...I'm basically trying to broaden the whole spectrum of what's going on..The parts of the war that most people over look. The fighting may have stopped between the Thalmor and the Empire...but the war is still going on behind the scenes. In other words, the war has went from physical bloodshed, to a battle that involves wit, strategy and political influence.

I admit, Ulfric is a tool and only made things harder for the resistance to overthrow the Thalmor...but in all actuality, regardless of which side you pick, the Thalmor still come out on top.

Brb guys.

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:17 am

This wasn't directed towards you

No worries there man. This was a very nice discussion

The lore is huge, i'd love to see an Elder Scrolls movie.

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:37 am

Thalmore could seriously care less about material things like "lives wasted" etc. Their true goal is much more "spiritual" than that.I'll let somebody else elaborate on this maybe.......

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:51 pm

No worries there man. This was a very nice discussion :wink:

The lore is huge, i'd love to see an Elder Scrolls movie.

Indeed.

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:50 pm

So where does this say Ulfric is an elf lover?

All it really says to me is the Thalmar want Skyrim to be easy pickings for them to walk in and clean up.

Spoiler

Status: Asset (uncooperative), Dormant, Emissary Level Approval

Description: Jarl of Windhelm, leader of Stormcloak rebellion, Imperial Legion veteran

Background: Ulfric first came to our attention during the First War Against the Empire, when he was taken as a prisoner of war during the campaign for the White-Gold Tower. Under interrogation, we learned of his potential value (son of the Jarl of Windhelm) and he was assigned as an asset to the interrogator, who is now First Emissary Elenwen. He was made to believe information obtained during his interrogation was crucial in the capture of the Imperial City (the city had in fact fallen before he had broken), and then allowed to escape. After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset.The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact.

Operational Notes: Direct contact remains a possibility (under extreme circumstances), but in general the asset should be considered dormant. As long as the civil war proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off. The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. (NOTE: The coincidental intervention of the dragon at Helgen is still under scrutiny. The obvious conclusion is that whoever is behind the dragons also has an interest in the continuation of the war, but we should not assume therefore that their goals align with our own.) A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed.

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:15 pm

Pretty sure it says the Thalmor are only supporting the rebellion as needed to keep the Empire at a weaker state. Send supplies when the Stormcloaks get weak, then crack down with the Empire when they get strong ect. "The enemy of my enemy..." You get the idea.

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:27 am

Someone did not interpret the text correctly. Along the way you may come to a quest were Ulfric shows his true feelings of the Thalmor.

And when he says its, I LMAO! You go Ulfric

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:41 am

I'm calling bull...Hammerfell didn't have to submit to the Thalmor. If the incompetent Imperials had a better leader, they wouldn't have had to submit, either.

True - if they'd had competent leaders who had pulled their heads out of their asses when the warnings started coming in about the Thalmor, they'd wouldn't have lost several legions and seen the Imperial City sacked. Too bad there weren't more legion commanders like the one who left troops behind in Hammerfell to tell the politicians where to stick it.

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:45 pm

What I got from that dossier is that Ulfric has for some time refused to have any contact with the Thalmor. OTOH Tullius talks to them every day, and tried to get them to sit in on the civil war peace conference. He took it as a personal affront when his Thalmor associate was kicked out of that meeting.

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:50 pm

svann:Tullius probably took it personally because they want to preserve their relationship with the Thalmor for as long as they can. Tullius dislikes the Thalmor, and Rikke worships Talos. However, they are in no position to defy them. The Stormcloaks consist of Nords, who are about "honor" and "glory" and would rather fight and die, rather than retreat and striek back. It's a shame because while I think the Stormcloaks are cool and everything(except Ulfric's attitude, everything that man says makes me angry) you are just doing as the THalmor want. Skyrim could possibly resist the Thalmor, but its a dangerous gamble they are taking. I personally feel the Empire signed WGC out of the "retreat and strike back" but the Stormcloaks defeat that purpose. If the stormcloaks win, the EMpire may as well not have signed that treaty in the first place. Ulfric says he doesn't want the dead to have died in vain, yet that is what he is doing. Ulfric wants to damage to the Thalmor, but he is doing so by collateral damage, and destroying the Empire in the process. Instead, he should be attacking the Thalmor. Get the first strike in. This would probably cause the next war, but then the Empire would be faced to deal with the Thalmor, and all the lives lost in the Civil War could be lost in the second Great War instead.

This whole war comes down to the Thalmor, yet the most damage is inflicted onto each other.

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:52 am

Another hint perhaps.The Thalmor have a particular interest Skyrim that has noting/everything to do with man let alone the empire.

Add to this , why did the Aldmeri stop? Why did they offer a treaty and agree to it? Why is Talos so threatening to them? Some answers to the treaty , to buy time for their real goal.Their real goal is not the "taking" of the empire they could care less about this particular plane of existence and there is one (or maybe 2) things stopping them from destroying it . If these facts became widely known , every single other race on the planet would be compelled to rise against them no exceptions, it would be that or annihilation.

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:20 am

Another hint perhaps.The Thalmor have a particular interest Skyrim that has noting/everything to do with man let alone the empire.

Add to this , why did the Aldmeri stop? Why did they offer a treaty and agree to it? Why is Talos so threatening to them? Some answers to the treaty , to buy time for their real goal.Their real goal is not the "taking" of the empire they could care less about this particular plane of existence and there is one (or maybe 2) things stopping them from destroying it . If these facts became widely known , every single other race on the planet would be compelled to rise against them no exceptions, it would be that or annihilation.

The aldmeri stopped because their entire attack force was destroyed. If they had been in any position to make demands of the empire they wouldn't have even made a treaty.(Well less of a treaty and more like the empire surrendering)

Their real goal is the erasure of mankind. Wiping out talos and all mannish races is what they seek. Afterwards they will undo the towers holding mundus together. Keep in mind, they do not want the world to end before they wipe out mankind.(Otherwise the idea of creation could be repeated) So they're trying to tiptoe a fine line here.

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:22 pm

Look.

The Thalmor was fighting multiple fronts and attacking a larger, if more dispersed enemy. Imperials had the home ground and provinces to draw reinforcement. The longer they can stall the Thalmor army, the better the imperial position would have become.

The peace treaty was signed specifically to save one man, the emperor. Had he decided to do down fighting to the end, the worst that would have happened is his death and stacking of the imperial city. It does not change that the elven army will eventually be routed by superior numbers of imperials reinforced by other provinces.

Instead, He basically placed his own life over the country's welfare and signed a treaty which splinters his own country and weakens the loyally of his subjects while giving the Thalmor time to regain their strength and consolidate their positions in provinces they captured.

This is exactly like Chamberlain's actions. By giving Hilter what he wants, it merely empowers him to consolidate and strengthen his position and then demand more. If the allies had responded to Hilter forcefully and oust him from gemany before he really got started, WW2 might not have happened.

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:11 am

This document does not state that Ulfric is some kind of Thalmor sleeper agent.

The situation is closer to how the United States felt about Osama Bin Laden during the cold war: he was a useful asset, something that could be used to cause problems for the Soviet Union. Of course we all know how that turned out: he did his job and had a major part in destabilizing the USSR, but the US never had him under control.

Ulfric's relationship with the Thalmor is the same: the Civil War is good for them, because is distracts and weakens the Empire while they persue their diecide/genocide against Talos/humanity and ultimately end the world. However, this is only useful to them so long as the Civil War continues.

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:44 pm

That fits right into the story , but I question the need to eradicate man first , unless it's just one of those "make damn sure it's done" type things.What I read could be interpreted either way I thank you for clarifying more.

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:39 pm

Ulfric egoistic? Seriously?
Now you're just pulling things out of your ass.

But hey, "My x is much bigger/better than yours" is a typical male game, so I guess anything goes...

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:58 pm

That fits right into the story , but I question the need to eradicate man first , unless it's just one of those "make damn sure it's done" type things.What I read could be interpreted either way I thank you for clarifying more.

It's not so much the need to eradicate man first, so much as it's... the same thing. Talos, Lorkhan, and Humanity are all parts/fragments/aspects of the same thing.

Humans are fragments of Lorkhan, just like the Mer are the fragments of the Aedra. The Thalmor plan is to make it so Lorkhan never existed, which means they need to make it so mankind never existed. The two are the same thing, kind of, so doing one does the other. This will undo creation, since Mundus was Lorkhan's idea in the first place, which means Mer will reform into their pre-creation divine forms.

Talos is a sort of new Lorkhan, basically. If they destroy the world (by destroying or disabling the Throat of the World) while he's still a god, it will just be the end of the world, because Lorkhan, as Talos, still exists and thus has always existed. If Talos is dead and all of humanity is dead, no part of Lorkhan will remain, and once he no longer exists he will never have existed and reality won't just end, it will never have come to being in the first place.

It's all very metaphysical and whatnot, and there's a bit more to it than all that, but that's pretty much it in a nutshell.

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:36 pm

This topic has been discused to dead http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1314642-ulfrics-thalmor-dossier/page__fromsearch__1

» Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:01 am

Ulfric was never an agent. They call him an "asset". Whatever he was, from the dossier it's quite clear they lost control of him. The Thalmor now fear a stormcloak victory. Rigthly so.

This has happened more than a few times in the course of human history: the pawn turns on the player. And ends up being much more dangerous than the original enemy.

» Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:04 pm

the dossier on ulric is incomplete.. i wish they would have put all of it in
as it says the thalmor want ulric dead

A stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid must be carefully managed.