Wow, another one of these threads complaining about not being able to be the ultimate paladin

Let me tell you, did you honestly believe that a guild called the THIEVES guild would be good? The Oblivion TG has spoiled a lot of people into thinking the TG was morally righteous even though Oblivion was the only game in which they were like that compared to how they acted in the past games before Oblivion.

I swear the same thread pops up every day. What, you are mad that you can't be the ultimate paladin who shoots rainbows and gives free ice cream to everyone? If that's the case then remind me to never play games like GTA4 with you.

Honestly, people expect to be the most moral person on the planet yet still expect to be given everything. Guess what, life doesn't work that way and expecting every company to cater to your needs and wants is foolish. The TG questline wouldn't be as great if you were forced into being good.

Even a poll from before the game was released showed that people wanted a darker TG.

The problem is, that there are no alternatives or branches. For example, you can't:

Frame Brand-Shei and then pay his bail/convince the guards to let him go after the job is done.

When being asked to hustle the three people in town, you can't instead lie to the guild and pay it yourself for them...etc

That's not even taking into account that the Dark Brotherhood is the only guild you can actually purposefully sabotage.

@OP I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Of course Beth needs to write a questline for the thieves guild. Do you realize how many people play a thief/assassin type character? You may be the law abiding citizen who will always role play exactly what you represent in real life, but there are many who just want as much gold as they possible can get, which is exactly the whole attitude of the thieves guild. If you haven't realized in the games there have been 2 good guilds and 2 bad guilds. If you are the good guy then go join the companions/fighters guild, mages guild/college, and if you're the bad guy then it's the dark brotherhood and the thieves guild. The fact that maybe one storyline is more interesting than another does not represent that Beth is in any way biased towards a certain faction. I thought the college's quests were quite good, and the dark brotherhood is nowhere near as good as Oblivion's dark brotherhood.

@re123 The reason I think they don't give you alternatives is that in joining you're meant to be the bad guy, and you're meant to help the thieves guild. If you frame Brand-Shei, and then convince the guards to let him go, then how is that helping the thieves guild? The point was to lock him up for a number of days. If you are not that type of character and don't feel up to it then don't do the job at all. Why would you frame someone, then let them go? In a role play perspective it would make no sense. You just want to play the game (advance the quest) while at the same time trying to somehow role play as a good character. Good characters would never join the thieves guild in the first place.

@warpenergybot Couldn't have put it any better myself.

You sir are confused, TES games are rpgs that are supposed to let you pick a role and play it, unlike gta where you're given a role to play. So its reasonable to expect a TES game to let you be a good guy or a bad guy. Yet this isn't really the case with Skyrim. I wouldn't expect to be moral and a TG member, but why can't we wipe them out, take down Maven and clean up Riften?

The problem is simply in order to RP a morally up standing character you have significantly less content the a morally bankrupt character. The TG should be bad, but there should also be a good option.

Strange- I'm just the opposite in game.

Just like the OP, I'm very law-abiding in real life. Would never consider stealing, killing, or really, doing anything to violate someone else's rights. I'm even a semi-pacifist- I believe in never using violence except in self defense.

In the game however, I very much enjoy playing a "bad guy". The Thieve's Guild and Dark Brotherhood lines were some of the most fun I've had in all my play throughs.

I guess I just find more fun doing things in video games that are completely out of character for me. To me, that's what role-playing is all about. If I was just going to play like I am in real life, what's the point of taking on the role?

Its not so much a thieves guild as a mobsters guild. A thief might be a thief for the challenge of stealing a heavily guarded item from the rich-man's fortress, you know, like in the big heist movies. Petty thugs are a different breed altogether.

I guess its just the tone of the Skyrim Thieves Guild, it is a real turn-off for some players. Having the thuggish element would be well and good if it was just an optional side feature and not part of the main guild quest.
The Thieves Guild in Morrowind and Oblivion was much more neutral. It was about thieving (the big heist) and not thuggery.

I love the Thieves Guild. I didn't find myself feeling dirty or wrong as I progressed through the storyline because I am not my characters and their motivations and morals do not reflect my own. I also knew full well what to expect in joining an organisation of thieves. They're not a group of vigilantes, they're thieves with predominantly selfish motivations. Expecting an organisation of thieves to provide a sweet and good-hearted story about generousity is like expecting the Dark Brotherhood to suddenly transform into a florist's.

I would point out that most of the members seem to have rather well-founded reasons for joining. Most members are very much 'grey' as opposed to out-and-out cackling evil overlord types, which makes them much more interesting and sympathetic to me than pure-as-the-driven-snow heroes. It makes sense that after running out of legitimate, legal avenues, a man like Rune would turn to crime to discover his origins. It makes sense that someone who feels so betrayed by life, who lived legally and was punished for it, such as Sapphire, would want vengeance on the world. For a Morag Tong agent waiting for his friends to regroup, the Thieves Guild provides sanctuary and protection from the Dark Brotherhood. I'm a little saddened that I can't help these people out with more of their personal issues.

To me, the Thieves Guild members are not a 'slimy, ugly bunch of misfits'. To my character, those people are friends and family. Not everyone who considers themselves good thinks in absolutes.

That being said, I do feel that some of the other guilds have weaker storylines. The most 'noble' guild, the College of Winterhold, has the weakest questline of all four major guilds and so I do see why things might seem disheartening to a player who wants to play a knight in shining armour type. I definitely agree that more storylines, developed storylines for 'good' characters would not go amiss. In particular, I think the Vigilants of Stendarr would benefit from an expansion. I think that type of group could be perfect for heroic characters.

what? the whole thieves guild questline is horrible. instead of writing it all down myself, here: http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=14422

Thanks, glad a few of you understood. For those that thought I was complaining about "having to do it" - reread my original post please. I CHOSE to do the questline, because it made no sense for me to ding something I hadn't played through. The fact that I didn't enjoy it isn't surprising - role-play to me is NOT being something outside my own boundaries, it's being myself in a different skin (RP can be, should be, and many times IS all things to all people who are involved in some form of it).

I would just have loved to see the same care and thought and energy put into the rest of the questlines as Bethesda did in this one.

check the link i gave just one post up, and you will change your mind.

I'd already seen that, read through it, and find I completely disagree. No worries, though, each to her own opinion after all!

Disagree with all of that.

Firstly, Brynjolf does talk to you differently if you don't have much money, so the assertion that he'll imply you're a thief no matter what is false. Secondly, taking from most dungeons might seem morally alright to some, but you're essentially a grave robber, stealing from the dead. Golldir, as a relative of some of the deceased in a particular tomb, is not exactly pleased when you start taking the family offerings. Thirdly, asking why has nothing to do with understanding what a frame up is so much as why it's happening.

That's just the intro. I'd go through all of it, but the post would be too long. The author seems to have no comprehension of things such as the illegality of extortion and other fairly simple ideas, but the post was good for a laugh.

sure, there's quite a lot of wrong in the article as well, and i agree with the points you brought up. overall though, i find the questline to be quite hastily written. it could be so much better, and far less silly, with some changes here and there.

Just because you always play a good character doesn't mean everyone else does. It wasn't a waste of writing at all, I quite enjoying playing my Thief character and the quest line was definitely one of the best in the game.

If you want to play a... "slimeball" character, the game needs to cater towards that, and because that doesnt appeal to YOU personally, it will to others.

Also, Skyrim is meant to be a pessimistic place. Return of the dragons, civil war, etc etc.

They call it the thieves guild because it's made of a bunch of theives, who don't particularly care about the law or other people. Honestly, I thought it was refreshing, I hated how the thieves guild in Oblivion felt like Robin-hood-and-his-band-of-merry-men guild, yet you still gained infamy for it. If your role playing a good character though, I would not play the guild.

I've played through the Companions questline twice, but never felt there was anything inherently evil about becoming a werewolf as it's presented. Both times were with characters I considered good and virtuous and I never felt there was conflict between those good and virtuous characters and lycanthropy. I'm now playing a dunmer sneak/thief/assassin in waiting, and I have no problem doing the things the TG requires of me, either. If that means tuning up the female proprietor of a brothel, then that's what I do.

Brothel? Erm. I think you misunderstood that place. That or the prosttutes in my game just don't like the look of my character.

I do agree about the lycanthropy though, at least to a point. If your character follows the Eight/Nine, then becoming a werewolf would absolutely go against their beliefs.

Ditto! I agree, I think the most fun I had was playing my Shadow Warrior, who assassinates people, while hiding in the shadows. LOL My Imperial is "the good one", My Nord did it all, My Breton went straight to the DB and my other Breton went straight to Riften, after Helgen. Brynjolf and Karliah are very likable characters and I love working with them.

How can you restrict yourself in a game that has so much to offer? I have to try out everything, at least ones. The only thing I will not do, is kill Paarthy! LOL And yes, it's a GAME. I would never go around in real life and kill people with a bow, because someone told me to do it!

Plus, as someone said, a harsh land like Skyrim really doesn't leave much room for "good folks". There are however, plenty of side quests that good characters can do and yes, there's always the Mages Guild and the Companions. Hmm, maybe some modder can add the Vigilant of Standarr as a guild.

In some ways I think they could do with cutting back on how twisted some things in the DB and TG get. Like seriously, I have to isntall a torture room to complete the final radiant quest for the DB? Why? I added everything else, why is it so necessary to shackle up 4 half naked people and slowly bleed them and beat them for information on some treasure I don't need. I hate torture-porm films like Saw, and I really hate when a game tries and gets me into doing it myself. It's not that I get queezy or anything, I just don't enjoy seeing tons of gore where dissecting people like frogs is just "normal".

At least in the TG line you didn't have to really beat them up. You could break something valuable of theirs, threaten them, or persuade. And really,t hat's not so bad when you consider the normal TG stuff you do like as mentioned putting innocent people in prison, stealing from everyone including relatively poor people, and killing rival gangs (although they really deserve it).

The way I see it is this.... Let's say your family was old school Theives guild. They don't like what mercer has done. Join the guild in order to
Reform it. The most non good quests are the earliest.

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Exactly, which is the other problem. The fact is, we can't actually sabotage the guild. We can't do it from within, and we cant do it directly, we can't even subvert it really. The moment we step into Riften, we are given Brynjolf's quest, and we can't even really decline it. We can't really tell him to stuff it, or outright kill him on the spot for suggesting something like that to us. We can't investigate the thieves guild and rout them out from Riften, or depose Maven's hold on the city.

ive learned the white clothing tends to stain very easily, thats why i tend to wear grey.

I'd like to direct everyone who replied here to this post:
http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1346086-is-it-pointless-to-join-the-dark-brotherhood-if-your-current-character-is-an-empire-supporter/ - specifically post number 16. greenwarden's post has made me stop and rethink my entire attitude about CRPG questing.