Yesterday, I looked back over a lot of posts about the TG questline. I've never done it because based on things I'd read in this forum, it wasn't going to be a good "fit" with my own values: regardless that TES is a role-playing franchise, I have a VERY hard time playing anything other than I AM IRL - law-abiding, good-doing, upright member of humanity; mostly the parts of "role-play" for me turn on being a race that is certainly not "real-world".

I decided that I should run a toon through it, just so I KNOW what the entire thing is about - and so I could maybe help people who have issues with it. Here's where I am now....

The questline itself is very well done. It's quite lengthy (which makes it not a particularly good questline for people with limited play hours). I didn't have any issues with the "glitchiness" - most likely because I already had some knowledge about where those issues might happen, and looked up how to avoid them on UESP....

It took me several hours yesterday and most of today to finish it. Not including doing anything about restoring the TG to its former glory. The problem is.... While I actually think the "revenge the wrongs" slant is excellent - I can't get past the icky feeling rousting some of the locals gave me. So - I won't be doing it again, and I won't be restoring the TG either, because it's just more of the same as far as the ickies go.

*shrug* I'm NOT going to falsify books, beat on people, threaten them etc. It's NOT my playstyle, and it's not fun. The revenge part of the questline was very well done. But the bottom line is - it's basically a slimy ugly bunch of misfits. And my toons, thank you very much, are NOT like that.

I deleted that toon. I'm not going there again. I WISH Beth had bothered to put the thought and energy used in this nasty little questline into something else - something that would have made me feel GOOD about running a toon through it. If there's one thing I dislike about this game, it's that Beth has produced a world in which there is practically NO good. That's as one-sided an approach as a world which is ALL good.

I'm hoping the modders will step up here, to make this world all it should have been.... and isn't at this point. Now, that doesn't mean it's not a fun game. It is - but only if I play it MY way. And that's where I'm going from now on.

Much as I agree the Skyrim world is too pessimistic and cynical, I don't agree as much on the Thieves Guild thing. I mean that's who they are, slimy crooks who would rob your grandma for her wedding ring. They put innocent people in prison, and send the Dark Brotherhood after their true enemies. They have a bit more tact about it all, but hey, there's a reason they live in the Sewers while big time criminals like Maven live in mansions and walk around freely. And that is because Maven gets others, namely them and the Brotherhood, to do her dirty work.

It's not all Robin and Zorro and stealing from the rich and whisking away into the night.

Bravo, sister. I feel exactly the same way. I actually have a secondary character who is an antihero, and even he can't find a reason to help out the TG. You have to be pretty much a lowlife.

It seems like the more evil the questline, the more thought and effort they put into it. The main quest is phoned in. There's nothing in Skyrim that makes you feel heroic and many things, such as torturing naked people, that make you feel like you need a bath.

Yes.... though that's rather my point. In a game like this one, the fact that the TG is a bunch of slime-balls is a given. WHY though would the devs waste a ton of great writing and questline development on something like that....? THAT'S the issue I have. Are there people who love to play this sort of complete cretin? Sure - but why did Beth find it necessary to cater to them?



You know - the very worst thing was finishing the whole thing, and then - feeling as if not only did the toon I was deleting need a bath, but so did I....

I think there was a major disconnect somewhere.

I think the better question is why they didn't write the other quests, especially ones with a far more reaching setting, to have as good dialogue and playability. Personally even the more evil stuff like the DB line I found to be not anywhere near as good as the TG line. I think the Thieves Guild line in general just holds over most every other quest or quest line.

Any number of reasons could be for that. Perhaps the Devs were a bit more personally connected to the TG characters and thus put more personality into them. Perhaps it was easier for them to write out the rogues rather than the shining heroes in a game that's geared more towards the former characters. Or maybe it was a fluke and the TG line became the cream of the crop.

Either way though I think they fit in nicely for who they are and what they do. Other quests and stories need to fall in line,

Did you dislike the fact that you were forced into pledging your soul to Nocturnal if you wanted to finish the questline?

And you get some armor that makes you look like some DC comics reject.

Oh please. No, Nocturnal's thing isn't the issue at all. Nor is the armor. One doesn't have to wear it of course (and my "keeper" toons craft better in any case.) You obviously missed the point.... The POINT is that Beth wasted a ton of great writing/scripting/quest interactivity on a slimeball operation like the TG.

The thing is, I adored Saints Row, even Saints Row 2 which is quite a bit grittier and more real world. I have no problem playing someone cruising around beating down pimps and forcing people to pay up on bad deals. But somehow, there's just something about the way it's done in Skyrim that feels nasty. Saints Row 3 was just plain too humorous to feel nasty, and Saints Row 2 felt like that was the point, you had a grasp on another perspective and you were looking into this other lifestyle. Skyrim it feels like the whole world is like that, even the "good" people.

Sorry, I didn't read your post properly and those were things that bugged me.

Well, the Skyrim branch of the Thieves Guild are certainly different from the one in Cyrodiil. I think both are opposite ends of the spectrum morally (thieving notwithstanding). I think the writers tried to make them believable as a criminal organisation, departing from the little angels they were in Oblivion.

Anyway, I thought it was okay. I wasn't amazed. I'm sure other people will prefer it as it is now, though.

Though I really hate it when people compare one game to another, I'm going to do it now.

I agree with you OP. The deeper I go into the alternate quests, the dirtier I feel.

Here's where I compare: I like fable's idea of giving us a choice on weather to be good or evil, and rewarding accordingly for each. Let everyone die, and rule as a tyrant, or saving everyone, and rule as a saint.

I think choices are a great thing in rpgs. I also think that every action should have consequences.

That said... I do love skyrim very much. I just wish I could create a real hero character instead of a scumbag.

Agreed. We should have more choices. Robin Hood anyone?

I definitely see your point Op, I'm currently playing oblivious again and the TG line allows you to play it as either a scumbag thief or a robin hood type. In Skyrim the TG is just organized crime with no potential to RP it any other way. Best example is Heironomous (sp?) Lex, the TG's main enemy, you get rid of the guy but not by killing him or ruining him. You get him promoted to a position he can't bother the guild from.

My main problem with the Skyrim TG is different tho. I liked the story and all but it really didn't seem much like a Thieves Guild line. It wasn't about stealing, it was about crawling one dungeon after another. In OB you didn't crawl any dungeons until you finally meet the Grey Fox. The detective work it took to find out information about an npc, learn their schedule and ensure you had enough time to get into their place and search for what you need is gone. In SK the main line consists of go to dungeon X and get to the end, and if its a job its simply go into the marked building whenever enter sneak mode and go click whatever your quest marker points at, so dull and uninspired.

I started it then quickly came to regret it.

I was waiting for Brand-Shei to get out of jail ... he didn't ... I felt guilty.
Everytime I went into the inn the male Argonian gave me a tongue-whipping "I'll never forgive what you did to Keerava"
Helping Riften's #1 villain Maeven to take over the whole of Skyrim's mead-industry
and so on.

It just made me feel queezy. I ended up deleting it all and reverting to an old save and continuing on without it.

They really needed alternate paths for that guild just to make it more flexible for those who didn't want to turn their character into a nasty thug.

The real question is: why a good character should join the thieves guild or the dark brotherhood?

They're an organization of 'thieves', people who steal for profit. Oblivion questline involving a more 'romantic' notion of thieves was fine and dandy but hardly the norm for a crime syndicate.

If you want to play the good guy, stick to the college or the companions guild. Besides, it's the whole nord people who seem to be more rough, their society harsher. The description of Nords in past games describes violence as an accepted trait of their society and I think this aspect is reflected also in the guilds operating in Skyrim.

Companions is good? You have to become a werewolf to do the line that's not a good guy thing to do. The mage's guild can be played as a good guy, even tho you learn the arch mage is a coward who allowed all his friends to die in Labirithian. Still the college line svcks ball sack anyways. So OP's point stands, there isn't much to do in Skyrim for a good guy.

Bingo.

It seems to me that some people continue to miss the point Serethil is trying to make in this thread. Her point, as I understand it, is this: why didn't Bethesda put the amount of time, attention and creative energy into the main quest that they put into the Theives Guild quests? I believe that is a valid question.

Because the guild quests have always been more fun?

Hey, there is another just like them called the Summerset Shadows. If the High elves are imitating them, they can't be all that bad.

You're not responsible for the actions of the whole guild but only yours. The companions maybe werewolves but they don't go mindlessly killing other people. The head of the college may be corrupt but it's replaced, in the end, by he player! Otherwise if you join a guild whose name include the word 'thieves' you can be sure it's not a charity organization!

It's always more difficult to roleplay a good character than an evil/indifferent/opportunist one. That's in OUR nature.

The problem is Skyrim doesn't give you the chance to be good. You either be bad or don't do any quests. Companions is the perfect example, you either become a werewolf by choice, which is at best a morally grey decision, or quit the line. If they wanted to open it up to both good and bad or in between characters they should have written it so becoming a werewolves was some sort of tragic accidents or situation you're forced into to save your life or some one else's. Then you could play the tragic hero trying to cleanse himself of the taint or accept the new power you've been given and go the grey bad route with Hircine. Instead its simply "say yes to this morally ambiguous decision or find something else to do".

Oh, my very thoughts with the DB finale. Why did I buy that chamber for the sanctuary? Why? Of course, in the opening minutes of a new character's journey, if you follow Hadvar, he blithely talks about the "necessary evil" of the Helgen torture chamber as you enter it. I actually attacked the torturer and he complained!

It's hard to be the good guy (or gal).

Lol, ironically many so-called charity organizations are thieves. Only pennies on the dollar go to help anybody, the rest is for "administrative overhead."

Riiiight...

That's true: Skyrim lacks choice and consequences in every single aspect. My reasoning was only pertaining the lack of good options inside a guild which is "not so good" (or plain evil, like the DB) by foundation.

I think the main problem is there is just not enough to do for a good character.

In most TES games that would normally just eliminate the Dark Brotherhood and some of the daedric quests.
But in Skyrim it also eliminates the Thieves Guild and possibly even the Fighters Guild (Companions) since becoming a werewolf isn't that appealing to everyone.

So the whole balance in the game has shifted. I wouldn't have a problem with the Thieves Guild if they had created a full quest line for the Bards Guild as that would have balanced things out allowing a good character to have a couple of guilds to choose at least.