Wall of text = Didn't read.

PS When a bug is not a bug, and a mod is not a mod... I shudder to think what the next thread might be about. I, for one, am looking forward to being illuminated -- keep up the good work!

FAIL!

So everyone is saying that being able to turn in a quest to a dead NPC even though it's not in the games programming code to be able to to do so...that would not be a bug because it would allow you to get the unfinish-able quest that people think is failed even though you have not failed it out of your journal.


However it IS A bug because you cannot turn a quest into a dead NPC?

FAIL!

It may be about you are getting closer to understanding things that you shouldn't be, Mr. Anderson.

Well of course not. How can you turn a quest into a dead NPC? That just sounds painful.

Ok so explain why people have a problem with having a quest being stuck in their journal they cannot turn in, because the NPC they needed to turn it into is dead from either something they themselves did, or something that happened...

If people accept that you cannot turn quests into a dead NPC, then they also have to acccept that causing a situation like that is exactly what is supposed to happen. If you do not like something stuck in your journal then do not cause it to happen, either do no kill the NPC or protect them better and then you won't be getting stuck with something in your journal you cannot remove. But people cannot be getting al pissy and crying BUG/GLITCH just because people cannot handle or like the situation that LEGITIMATELY happened.

Getting a Quest from an NPC = Legitimate
NPC getting Killed = Legitimate
A quest not turned in that is still in your journal = Legitmate
Not being able to turn in the quest you got from the NPC because it's dead = LEGITIMATE


So as you can see this is not a bug just because you cannot turn a quest in for the rest of the game. It's a properly functioning program this is just people pissing and moaning they don't like something that is legitimate so people need to deal with it.

And as I said before, using a console command to remove a legitmate thing from the game that happened under legitmate circumstances IS IN FACT 100% CHEATING!

BRB, gonna go mod me a sandwich.

Are you going to e-dit?

This is required to be explained in order for people reading this, to understand the point and the information I need for the wiki.

Ok first off let me explain a PERSONAL OPINION AND POINT OF VIEW REGARDING WHAT PEOPLE ARE CALLING BUGS/GLITCHES when ANYTHING is written into the wiki and other such places INCORRECTLY this gets people and players to incorrectly get a knowledge about something and then spreading around the net false pieces of information, that in turn causes people to just think something is just because it's all over the place and so before to long everyone is calling a bog/glitch something it's not and if you try to explain to people specific things they reply with Well if it's not then why is everyone calling it that then" Or things like "It's even in the Wiki"

My point is that when people not have something work properly in a game they are way too quick to say things like "Oh I cannot get this out of my inventory IT MUST BE BUGGED' OR "This NPC didn't advance in the quest" It's bugged then on the wiki you read things like KNOWN BUGS and you read all this information under a section called KNOWN BUGS.

One thing I've have constantly noticed about 99.9% of players that play Skyrim is that they clearly have absolutely no concept/understanding about how the game is programmed, and or have any understanding how the games programming even works....And this is where the problem comes into play for people labeling something a BUG/glitch that isn't even a bug/glitch. It's just players not understanding the quest system and or how the quest system is put together.

Skyrim is not programmed in the same manor other games these people play the way they THINK it is, so when something goes wrong they are quick to automatically say the game is bugged/glitched, instead of taking the time to fully understand that what they themselves did in the game totally 100% changes what happens in events further along in the game even if it's not related to the current or specific quest line and events they are having a problem with. And this in turn proves, exactly what I just said about people who don't understand how this quest system works because they say things like "You are supposed to be able to do every quest you get in the game no matter what".

Actually NO you are not supposed to be able to do every quest no matter what, and that is where people are not understanding that 3/4 of the things people are saying is bugged actually IS NOT BUGGED it's players not understanding that this game is so intricately programmed that it plays 100% completely different than what people have always been used to.

The above situation is exactly why I said that 99.9% of the Skyrim players have absolutely no clue how the quest system in this game works never mind how it was programmed they take how they think the game is and start applying it to Skyrim and trying to force an older programming system into something current without understanding you cannot and this is exactly what causes people's confusion.

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Using the "LOUD AND CLEAR" QUEST from the thieves guild, the Fetch quests from the Bards college (Flute, Lute, Drum), and the MISTWATCH QUEST (Help CHRISTER locate his kidnapped wife FJOLA) as an example, I am going to lay out the difference between an actual BUG and what people are thinking is a bug just because they don't understand the quest system or how it works.

The fetch quest in the Bards college has you get three items A Flute, A Lute, and A Drum. Now upon finishing those 3 quests, you turn them in and even though you get a message on the screen saying (Said item has been removed) if you look they are still in your inventory. Every single person has this happen and the only way to remove those items is through a console command...

This particular bards quest IS IN FACT A BUG because it happens to EVERYONE not some people here and there. Because quest items when turned in should be being removed..

So yes this is an actual bug/glitch.

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NOW I'll go into the LOUD AND CLEAR quest in the Thieves guild:

At the point you turn in this quest, you need to go talk to BRYNJOLF which in turn gives you DAMPENED SPIRITS which explains that you need to go talk to MAVEN BLACK-BRIAR. Now people are reporting that after turning in the LOUD AND CLEAR segment to BRYNJOLF the DAMPENED SPIRITS quest never triggers. So people are quick to say it's a bug...However now lets look at what people do not seem to understand...DESPITE WHAT PEOPLE THINK that you should be able to turn this quest in when you do it and that it is supposed to be able to be turned in no matter what and at any time is where the people thinking that PROVES that those people really do not understand how the quest system in this game works and here are 2 scenarios PROVING this:

So far not one person as well as the WIKI have mentioned WHEN they are trying to turn in LOUD AND CLEAR. Which in fact has everything to do with whether or not you can turn it in.
Doing the CIVIL WAR QUEST LINE BEFORE DOING THE THIEVES GUILD QUEST LOUD AND CLEAR, AND OR BURNING MORE THAN 3 BEEHIVES actually DOES IN FACT change how the game is played and whether or not you can continue..

SCENARIO 1:
Upon entering the thieves guild you are SPECIFICALLY TOLD ONLY DO EXACTLY WHAT WE TELL YOU OR YOU WON'T GET A CUT..NOTHING MORE NOTHING LESS. (not exactly in that sentence but that is what you're told to do in a nutshell. Anyway if you burn more than 3 beehives AFTER YOU WERE EXPLICITLY GIVEN AN ORDER TO ONLY DESTROY 3 then guess what you did exactly what you were told not to do, pissed off BRYNJOLF, and then you think you should be able to get rewarded in the game. No just like real life you suffer the consequences of not doing what you're told and getting consequences for your actions..So in this case not getting any further quests so that quest in that aspect is doing exactly what it's programmed to do..You screwed up now deal with it...

In scenario 1 the game is not bugged...that is the player being stupid then trying to say they should be able to continue despite not following directions so no any player saying THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE ABLE TO FINISH THE QUEST NO MATTER WHAT is wrong..So in this scenario NO YOU ABSOLUTELY SHOULD NOT be able to continue the thieves guild quests. Players have no business calling the game bugged just because they didn't follow directions...that is the players fault for not understanding that what the game says it means, and then still thinking they can proceed...this is ONLY ONE example of people not understanding how the game is programmed or how the quest system works..


SCENARIO 2:
Doing the Thieves Guild Quests BEFORE doing the Civil War Quest and doing them after the Civil War quest line WILL HAVE TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT OUTCOMES IN SPECIFIC CASES WITH SPECIFIC QUESTS THAT INVOLVE SPECIFIC NPC'S. If anyone cared and bothered to pay any attention that after completing the CIVIL WAR QUEST LINE just about changes everything around you, the guards, people, the JARLS, THIS CHANGES ALSO INCLUDES QUESTS.....NPC's wind up have other concerns and what was once a top of the list to do problem they now couldn't be bothered with..because the civil war turns everything upside down.

So when you do the LOUD AND CLEAR quest absolutely 100% in fact have an actual impact of whether or not you can turn it in..In a nutshell this is exactly what happens:
THE CIVIL WAR QUEST turns plain old MAVEN BLACK-BRIAR into JARL MAVEN BLACK-BRIAR. DAMPENED SPIRITS has you You are told to go talk to MAVEN BLACK-BRIAR and you cannot because you have changed who she is by the Civil War.

IN SCENARIO 2, the quest is doing exactly what it's programmed to do, if you do not turn in LOUD IN CLEAR before everything changes then you cannot do it because you changed what happens in the game by specific events which again people getting stuck with this are trying to say that regardless for what is going on and what you change you are still supposed to be able to advance in a quest no matter what..and again that is 100% wrong..So in this scenario NO YOU ABSOLUTELY SHOULD NOT be able to continue the thieves guild quests because you CHANGED WHAT HAPPENED.

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The last example I'm going to use shows the exact situation for the above explanations in a very dumbed down manor:

There is a misc quest in MISTWATCH you get from a man named CHRISTER to Save his Wife FJOLA and people report THE QUEST BEING BUGGED due to not being able to continue the quest due to various reasons or get the ring out of your inventory. Now I have read everything people are calling a bug in this quest and I can tell just by reading what is being said there is no bug it's again people not understanding this quest system. Here is what people are claiming is a bug, if either Christer AND OR FJOLA gets killed you cannot turn the quest in. Chirster can get killed by the bandits that barge into the room because he runs out and engages in the fight. FJOLA gets killed if you kill her because she attacks you. Any NPC that gets killed, that is required to be alive to turn in a quest, IS NOT A BUG, that is the NPC getting killed. It happened so deal with it. But don't go blaming the game about a quest you cannot complete because the NPC you need to turn it into got killed...


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NOW TO TIE THIS WHOLE THING TOGETHER:

All 3 situations above all have the same exact thing in common...in all 3 cases the PLAYER THEMSELVES HAS CHANGED THE SEQUENCE OF EVENTS IN THE GAME, but are somehow in the mindset that those event changes in the game do not matter or aren't supposed to matter because they aren't aware that Skyrim is programmed so intricately that yes the events absolutely do have a major impact on what gets done, when you do it or whether or not you can do it.

I'll sum this up in a very simple fashion
NOT BEING ABLE to turn a quest into any dead NPC that needs to be alive to turn in a quest is the exact same thing as NOT BEING ABLE TO TRIGGER A QUEST to an NPC that needs to be in a specific place to turn it in...In a lot of cases in Skyrim you absolutely WILL change an NPC's outcome of what you may or may not be able to do because you're altering the events in what happens.

HERE IS A LIFE SITUATION THAT YOU CAN APPLY TO THOSE 3 SITUATIONS ABOVE:
Lets say a pawn broker asks you to go retrieve a piano for him, and if you do he will make you an employee AND HE WAS THE ONLY ONE WHO WAS ALLOWED TO DO IT AND THAT UPON RECEIVING THE PIANO IT'S YOURS PERMANENTLY AND YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO GET RID OF THE PIANO UNDER ANY CONDITIONS FOR ANY REASON WHATSOEVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES and the employee piano contract will always supersede any loop hole you try to use to get rid of the piano it's yours for life. SO NOW YOU HAVE WRITTEN INTO A CONTRACT A SPECIFIC SET UP SO no matter what, the contract has to get followed in order for you to become an employee.

Now after you sign the contract and ACCEPT THE TERMS, you go off to get the piano, and In the event of doing so you trigger an event that gets the Pawn Broker you're doing the errand for causes him to accidentally get killed...Guess what even if you get the piano. The issue here is that you cannot EVER become an employee of that store because YOU DID SOMETHING THAT GOT HIM KILLED AND CHANGED THE OUTCOME.

So are you going to go around saying life is bugged because I cannot turn BECOME AN EMPLOYEE BECAUSE THE GUY I MADE THE DEAL WITH CAN NO LONGER DO IT AND REGARDLESS IF HE IS DEAD OR NOT, I STILL SHOULD BE REQUIRED TO MAKE MADE AN EMPLOYEE BECAUSE THAT WAS THE DEAL THAT COULD ONLY BE FULFILLED BY THAT SHOP OWNER BECAUSE AFTER ALL IT SHOULDN'T MATTER. AND I SHOULD STILL BE ABLE TO GET RID OF THE PIANO (A piano you singed a contract to be stuck with permanently.)

Just like the shop owner, MAVEN BLACK-BRIAR is no longer Who shes ONCE WAS because the CIVIL war changes her priories all because of where she is. Same exact thing with CHRISTER and his wife, If one or both wind up dead it changes what happens and the outcome of what you can or cannot do.So why are people seriously trying to say that even though events have been changed in the game that altar everything that they are still entitled to be able to do what happened BEFORE the events got changed like it didn't happen. When events get changed in the game NO PLAYERS ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE ABLE TO DO ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING BECAUSE YOUR ACTIONS CARRY CONSEQUENCE AND CHANGE. So yes you should be stuck with a quest of this nature you cannot get out of your journal because that is exactly what happens when you change things in Skyrim you get stuck because of your actions and what you change.

just like if the Jarl that gave you a quest is no longer there...You cannot turn in the quest and now you cannot remove teh entry from your journal. That isn't bugged, what that actually means is that means you should have paid attention and turned in the quest when you were supposed to if you dont know when that is oh well deal with it Skyrim is set up to do what no game has done before and that is make you deal with the consequences of your actions and changes whether good or bad...Players again in this instance think that who you get the quest from and when you get it is not relevant because that is what they are used to, when in fact it is 100% relevant who you get teh quest from, where you get it, and when you decide to turn it in.. If you wait to long then of well and not knowing when to turn it in is exactly the point.

people need to separate and understand that there is a difference bewteen a bug and changes in a script that make you deal with a consequence

A bug means it cannot be done NO MATTER WHAT regardless of anything that happens...

Changes in a script because of an NPC Dying so now the quest is not doable isn't bugged because the events are what changed the outcome and not just because it cannot be done.

As I said a simple way to explain this is an NPC that you have to turn a quest into that is either dead or lost somewhere..If you you have a quest by that NPC and that NPC is either Dead or cannot be found then NO IT IS NOT BUGGED JUST
The quests you cannot do in the above examples happen because of a specificchange and have reason for happening.

Players are not aware that the programming in SKYRIM is the first time a game has ever used a system that FORCES YOU to keep a quest you WOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO FINISH IF NOTHING CHANGED ANYTHING.to have players understand that this is one aspect of the games programming no one has ever seen

People like to say no game ever does this and bethesda wouldn't do this and how are you supposed to know this would happen without taking into account that is exactly the point...you don't know what is going to happen until later on..Just like in real life you cannot go back and undo a mistake or call something in life bugged just because you disagree with it..And as I said before people do not understand how this game was programmed and that if you canot do something you get stuck with it.

THERE IS MAJOR DIFFERENCE IN DOING SOMETHING IN THE GAME TO CAUSE A CHANGE IN A SITUATION AND NOT BEING ABLE TO DO SOMETHING FOR NO REASON AT ALL. And people should learn the difference.