Yes, play the game the way I tell you. It is better for yourself. That is called being eltist my friend, it gets you no where.

I can play the game without getting into it & still enjoy it. i can do the same with chess to win. I will never have to get into the game at all to beat the lesser skilled player.

You do not ever have to get into it.

You're right, I honestly cannot play the role of imperial, or stormclock as I lack the motivation to put on that mask. In the end it becomes me going through it to experience the content rather than me going through it to actually become absorbed in my role.

In a lot of ways that is my inability to find a reason or to improvise, but it is also due to the script I was given... I'm really pushing this actor idea too far.


That what, steam forces you to use their software, that you used to download the game? Yeah I understand that complaint as there are very few business models like that out right now and none within the realms of physical business as policing that would be almost impossible.

I understand the complaint, however I don't believe this one flaw is enough to boycott Steam, or Valve.

For him and his problem of wanting more it is. Nobody cares how you play the game. You are not the topic.

Yes creating a fantasy game, book, or character is hard given how over worked the genre is and you must take inspiration from other sources. However racism has been in the series, to varying degrees, since at least (to my knowledge) Morrowind, and is a big part fantasy games, books, and lore. The idea is presented but never fleshed out, it's merely there but serves as nothing more than as a reminder that it exists.

Assuming makes an ass out of you & me.

On topic.

Hard to believe after you went out of your way to point out the way to play that part of the game.

You will have this problem with every role unless it was written for you. There will then be no variation of it of course.

Ignore the quest lines and crawl into the caves and ruins. Do some hunting and just live your own adventure. The quest lines are not important.

I am not interested to know what you think about me or my comments.

The problem is that outside of "Imperial" or "Nord" neither side really stands out. At least with the dark brotherhood I feel that 95% of the time I will not join them, and may even hunt them out because I feel they're immoral, the same goes for Daedra.

Most of the factions are fleshed enough that I can understand their motives, I understand what goes on behind the scenes. Neither side really gives that to me outside the sign located at the beginning saying "Nords go right" and "Imperials go left".

As I said before I don't really care about the lack of Talos worship as it's never really fleshed out. The talos worshiper inside Whiterun sounds more like a lunatic, and those who do speak about it are somewhat impartial. The segregation of Windhelm is somewhat depressing but it never hits home what it truly should. They play such a small role to their respective factions ideology that it makes it hard to really fight for either side.

I think it's presented in quite nuanced fashion. The fact that Stormcloaks appear on the surface to be the more racist and yet their areas are the ones with the most non-Nords, for instance. And the background of the Nords allowing Dunmer to take land after Vvardenfell when the empire did nothing and Black Marsh invaded. I think it's meant to invert the stereotypes. The problem is that people get a very surface impression and run with it, rather than looking deeper. TES games are never going to hit you over the head or give you a cutscene to tell you what it's all about. It requires reading, careful listening and thinking.

Not thinking about what I believe. If I did, I would have fixed the words out to support the claim.

You stated what you saw as a proper way to play the game in order to get into it. There is always more than one way to get into it, & not all of them involve you actually getting into it.

I appreciate how ambiguous the TES series has been as I don't like being told what to believe, or what to care for, but I'd like to be told why I should care, or at least why I should take interest. The racism is there... but honestly they have homes, and other then being treated somewhat poorly they really don't live terrible lives. The beggars have a worst time than most of the dunmer living in Windhelm.

I'd fight for whatever side promised those 9 beggars homes.

What helped pull me out, and keep me out, of the story, of feeling some sort of empathy or apathy for the world around me was that the world around me, along with its people, did not come off as harsh enough.

When I walked into a Stormcloak camp as a High Elf Mage, or even a High Elf wearing Glass Armor, I literally expected to be instantly thought of as an enemy due to how much emphasis was put onto disliking/hating the Elves and Thalmor, and I looked like one casually strolling into their camp.

Even if you take the Nords and Elves out of the equation, I was expecting to walk into the "wild North." Towns being raided, people being beaten, people going hungry, etc.

I felt no connection to the world around me. I felt no actual reason was given to join one side or the other.

So... you can't feel involved because the Dunmer aren't as bad off as you think they should be?

It honestly feels half-baked to me in most cases. There are a lot of partially realized ideas in the game, that hurts itself by not going all the way. I mean, I can run around Windhelm, even buy a home there as an Argonian, and nobody cares. I can enter any city as a Khajiit and nobody cares, despite npcs of the same race being barred from entry. It's just overall, lack of internal consistency.

It is not about understanding their motives. It is about making their motives yours. Stormcloaks are rebells. They want the rebellion so much that they do not care about their problems at home or about racism or much anything else. Imperials want a higher goal, they always "stay sharp", and put you on the execution block even when your name is not on the list. There is a difference between understanding someone's motives and leaving your own behind to take on the motives of others.

And do not seek to win the game in some way. Blend in with either side, become a member of them in heart and spirit, and make the same mistakes as they do, too. The experience is different depending on which side you take and it will not feel as the same just with different colours. If it helps, shout out the same parols as they do. Stay sharp as the Imperials do it, or try to confront every non-Nord with your rebell nature and sound like a racist as the Stormcloaks.

as i've stated in other threads, i want the issues fleshed out in the game more overtly.

but, i don't want any real-life metaphors or equivalencies or tie-ins because i know where it will inevitably lead.

TES lore-only.

i don't want real-life political statements.

The game tells me Khajiits aren't allowed in cities.

I don't "feel" like a Khajiit when I can waltz into any city I please.

I've played Dungeons & Dragons as a Drow, on the surface. I'm made to "feel" like a Drow because every single God-damned person thinks I'm pure evil. You can't just waltz in through the main gate of a surface city as a Drow.

But the dragons, whimsical gods, etc. are standard fantasy fare; i.e. yes they're cliche, but it's cliche that fits the game world and even belongs in it.

Using a game to try to send a political message just doesn't cut it. Half the reason people play games is to escape from that crap, if only for a few hours. Letting it be known that you're doing that is going to be nothing but a disaster from the developer's point of view - you're pretty much guaranteeing that about half your potential customer base is not going to buy your game. Besides, political themes are constantly shifting with time. An issue that is relevant when you release your game will probably be old news in a few weeks or months, and your harping on it within your game world is just going to look ridiculous and dated very quickly.

Politics has been allowed to seep into just about every corner of modern life - can't we have just a few places where we don't have to deal with it?

I think the only world Bethesda has created that felt hostile both environmentally, and socially was Fallout 3. But even then it came off as somewhat silly and childish.


It's presented as racism, as if they're being treated poorly, yet you find that they live better than you do sometimes. At least they have a home, outside of that one instance when walking into Windhelm the topic is dropped from an already low point, to an even lower point in which it is barely noticeable and becomes a way to break the ice.


In a way I wish my character had a 20% chance of dying at the chopping block, Alduin didn't come, or maybe I was picked first. Then I'd have a 40% chance to never become the Dovahkiin while one of my escaped prison mates become it. On top of all that if I was a Khajit I could never go into cities, and if I was an Argonian I could die based upon poor blood circulation.

That would be a terrible game in which Khajits were worthless, Argonians were just ice cubes, and I had a chance to become a mere merchant.


To be fair I'd have to understand their motives in order to make them mine... but lets forget that. I honestly don't find their motives satisfying to me, they don't hold much weight other than one being the the Snow Miser and the other being the Heat Miser... while I'm stuck playing Mother Earth and I don't even get a awesome catchy song.

I'm not asking for Crazy Jack the Crazy Kat to come up to me after I drink Skooma telling me drugs are bad. I'm just asking for these ideas to be fleshed out, not provided to me by some government official preaching to me about why racism is terrible.

As a side comment "political" ideas are in most books, movies, TV shows, games, and music and honestly a lot of the time it's interesting. Racism itself isn't really political as it plays such a small role (or at least a severely reduced role) in modern politics in the U.S.

lol-

me and my daughter were just singing that the other day! whodathunkit?

Yes, of course. You need to understand the motives just to play this game. But to forget about the mechanics will you have to walk in their shoes and dive in a bit deeper as you so far have done.

But do not worry about it too much. The game has many quest lines and even if none of them gets you then you can still choose to do your own thing.

I have difficulties with the Thieves Guild quest line... To me are they all just softies who act tough. They almost seem to have no morals at all and maybe this is my problem and I need to have some basic elements to identify with. I have not figured them out yet really. Even the DB is more fun, being a club of loonies, than the Thieves Guild, which I find just funny to play as.

It will be impossible for Bethesda to capture exactly what each players wants to have as their quest or faction and then put it into the game. Everyone is different and Bethesda cannot create a million quest lines and factions.

Which was the faction or quest line that you enjoyed the most?

I don't think anyone is really calling for that. The key is to just shave off a bit of the passion and controversy of real-life politics and conflict without directly alluding. Then you can have situations like the Foresworn which are very powerful with some minimalist worldbuilding.

There's a history of this in TES. One of the writers said he designed the Redguards with the conscious intention to turn players' ideas on their heads by creating, in effect, imperialist Africans. Or take the book that refutes the Nordic legends of frontier settlement and racial originalism.

And yeah, the civil war quests were somewhat tacked on. Only the dialog the faction leaders repeat intially is really worth much to the narrative and atmosphere.

I like the Thieves Guild a lot in thie game (even if the questline is poorly written) because they actually do immoral things in the name of corrupt poeople in power. You can't play with a clean consciense, stealing from the rich like half a Robin Hood. You are a tool of Maven Black-Briar and the rot in the heart of a city.

The Dark Brotherhood are insufferable as always. I laughed my ass off when I saw the mage pinned to that tree.

closed to review