Who Misses the Black Horse Courier? : V - Skyrim

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:07 am

Haven't you heard that ranting courier?

"Get your Black-Briar Courier here! get it while it's not going to kill you!"

Yeah, he didn't live long. Sorry about that.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:03 am

Besides, Skyrim needs a lot more than a paper to increase the immersion. Nothing you do means anything.

I always love hearing this.

So could you tell me what your actions in Oblivion or Morrowind meant? They had just as much impact on the story, and the world wasn't totally changed. Heck, completing the civil war questline has more of a tangible, immediate effect on the game's world than anything you could do in Oblivion or Morrowind.

» Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:33 pm

I always love hearing this.

So could you tell me what your actions in Oblivion or Morrowind meant? They had just as much impact on the story, and the world wasn't totally changed. Heck, completing the civil war questline has more of a tangible, immediate effect on the game's world than anything you could do in Oblivion or Morrowind.

Rebuilding the Thieves Guild means nothing, joining the Companion and becoming Harbinger means nothing, barely any recognition. Civil War destroys Whiterun I get it, but you free leader of Forsworn, any note of this? Anyone note how Forsworn seem more organized. ZILCH.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:29 am

Rebuilding the Thieves Guild means nothing, joining the Companion and becoming Harbinger means nothing, barely any recognition. Civil War destroys Whiterun I get it, but you free leader of Forsworn, any note of this? Anyone note how Forsworn seem more organized. ZILCH.

Ok, and in Oblivion and Morrowind?

What did your actions do that actually changed the world?

Spoiler

Also, I'd argue that rebuilding the Thieves' Guild means quite a bit, since you make a permanent change to every city on the map. And the Companions questline gives a unique buff/curse and a cure for it when finished. The Civil War questline changes the guards in a number of cities, not just one, and the Forsworn questline you're referring to gives you one encampment of friendly Forsworn.

All of that stuff seems like it makes at least as much of a difference as anything you do in prior Elder Scrolls games.

» Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:11 pm

Ok, and in Oblivion and Morrowind?

What did your actions do that actually changed the world?

Spoiler

Also, I'd argue that rebuilding the Thieves' Guild means quite a bit, since you make a permanent change to every city on the map. And the Companions questline gives a unique buff/curse and a cure for it when finished. The Civil War questline changes the guards in a number of cities, not just one, and the Forsworn questline you're referring to gives you one encampment of friendly Forsworn.

All of that stuff seems like it makes at least as much of a difference as anything you do in prior Elder Scrolls games.

My point is there hardly any real consequences to your choices, other than some atheistic or small comments. I just felt games like Torment and Baldur's Gate did it much much better.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:05 am

My point is there hardly any real consequences to your choices, other than some atheistic or small comments. I just felt games like Torment and Baldur's Gate did it much much better.

Games like Torment and Baldur's Gate follow a linear plot with an ending. It's worlds easier to create a game where the world changes dramatically if you're forcing the player on a certain path and you eventually end the experience.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:02 am

Could argue Baldur's Gate has multiply endings as you're not forced to do every quest, Elder Scrolls and Baldur's Gate have biggest modding community in rpgs. At least Bioware tried with consequences and despite all the hate, I did prefer Dragon Age 2 to Skyrim for the lore and characters, not to mention character side quests.

» Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:32 pm

Could argue Baldur's Gate has multiply endings as you're not forced to do every quest, Elder Scrolls and Baldur's Gate have biggest modding community in rpgs. At least Bioware tried with consequences and despite all the hate, I did prefer Dragon Age 2 to Skyrim for the lore and characters, not to mention character side quests.

You could argue that, but you wouldn't, because the game is still completely linear and ultimately ends the same way every time.

And if you prefer Dragon Age 2- the most widely acknowledged failure of a game in the past few years -to Skyrim, then there's just no accounting for taste.

» Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:18 pm

You could argue that, but you wouldn't, because the game is still completely linear and ultimately ends the same way every time.

And if you prefer Dragon Age 2- the most widely acknowledged failure of a game in the past few years -to Skyrim, then there's just no accounting for taste.

HYPOCRITE

And another classic debate technique.

If you don't agree with me, it's because I'm on a higher plane of understanding than you.

If you're going to say one thing in another thread then do same thing you chastised in another thread, then be sure it's far in the past.

Also worse RPG, that's laughable, Final Fantasy MMO was far worse, so bad they even apologized for it, Risen on Xbox was far worse.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:33 am

HYPOCRITE

If you're going to say one thing in another thread then do same thing you chastised in another thread, then be sure it's far in the past.

Also worse RPG, that's laughable, Final Fantasy MMO was far worse, so bad they even apologized for it, Risen on Xbox was far worse.

I really don't see how it's hypocritical to point out that I don't understand your praise of a game that was universally acknowledged as a failure on all fronts.

I didn't even say you were wrong. I just said that there's no accounting for taste. As in, I don't understand your opinion, but to each his own.

Get your panties unbunched, please.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:40 am

You're hyperbole is quite cute you know, universally reviled, oh ho is that complete exaggeration I see. Why yes it is, I provided games that were universally reviled.

» Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:26 pm

Skyrim could have had a newspaper for the two seperate lands.

Empire- The Black Horse Courier

Stormcloaks- The Daily Talos

Each could have different stories for the major events.

» Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:58 pm

Skyrim could have had something similar for the two seperate lands.

Empire- The Black Horse Courier

Stormcloaks- The Daily Talos

Each could have different stories for the major events.

Thanks for putting this back on topic and yes something like that would have been perfect.

» Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:25 pm

You're hyperbole is quite cute you know, universally reviled, oh ho is that complete exaggeration I see. Why yes it is, I provided games that were universally reviled.

I didn't say it was universally reviled. I said it was acknowledged as a failure on all fronts. Which may have had more to do with it being the sequel to an incredibly successful RPG than anything else.

But since that has nothing to do with your assertion that open-world RPGs should be compared to linear-plot RPGs when it comes to world-changing dynamics...

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:32 am

Edit, double-post.

» Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:14 pm

You can go to everywhere in Baldur's Gate, and don't even have to do main quest, that there is linear.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:32 am

You can go to everywhere in Baldur's Gate, and don't even have to do main quest, that there is linear.

You actually do have to eventually do the main quest unless you choose to stop playing the game at a certain point. The "non-linear" options were great, but they were ultimately just distractions from the main story, which you had to follow if you wanted to keep leveling up and getting better gear, etc.

Now, take the Elder Scrolls. You can literally play any game in this series for hundreds of hours and never even start the main quest. That's a whole different type of game.

» Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:02 pm

I always love hearing this.

So could you tell me what your actions in Oblivion or Morrowind meant? They had just as much impact on the story, and the world wasn't totally changed. Heck, completing the civil war questline has more of a tangible, immediate effect on the game's world than anything you could do in Oblivion or Morrowind.

Glad I sparked your love.

It has nothing to do with Skyrim per sey. It's just the way TES is. Glad you shared your knowledge of the series.

EDIT : Not that I don't enjoy the games anyway. In fact they are my favorite.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:58 am

Glad I sparked your love.

It has nothing to do with Skyrim per sey. It's just the way TES is. Glad you shared your knowledge of the series.

Sorry, wasn't clear on whether this was going to turn into another "Morrowind was better" threads. And I agree this is the way the series works. It's one of the drawbacks of an open-world RPG that doesn't end. You can't change the world significantly if people are going to play in it forever.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:15 am

I don't really mind the lack of consequence too much - though I really wish they'd fix the guards thing, it has to be a bug, there are plenty of other examples where the guards stop saying something once you complete X quest so as far as I can tell they just forgot to put the conditions in... I wonder if a mod has done it yet. If not I might, seems a simple fix.

I agree a newspaper would add a lot - it did make it feel a bit more like there were consequences in Oblivion (when really there weren't any). Perhaps another mod should be made? Or maybe it could be a free bit of DLC, though I'd rather they do something a bit more useful.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:58 am

Sorry, wasn't clear on whether this was going to turn into another "Morrowind was better" threads. And I agree this is the way the series works. It's one of the drawbacks of an open-world RPG that doesn't end. You can't change the world significantly if people are going to play in it forever.

You still could. I think so. It wouldn't really need to be a black or white decision. Just make the NPCs respond differently. Give different rewards for the way you handle quests. Make multi dialog branches, pending your race and reputation and actions. Anyone of those would have a greater immersion impact over a newspaper that just highlights a brief event that you just completed.

» Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:15 pm

You still could. I think so. It wouldn't really need to be a black or white decision. Just make the NPCs respond differently. Give different rewards for the way you handle quests. Make multi dialog branches, pending your race and reputation and actions. Anyone of those would have a greater immersion impact over a newspaper that just highlights a brief event that you just completed.

Or how about both newspaper and that?

» Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:32 pm

You still could. I think so. It wouldn't really need to be a black or white decision. Just make the NPCs respond differently. Give different rewards for the way you handle quests. Make multi dialog branches, pending your race and reputation and actions. Anyone of those would have a greater immersion impact over a newspaper that just highlights a brief event that you just completed.

Those ideas sound simple to implement, but think of how wide-reaching they'd have to be. You already have NPC responses change based on your progress, and it's obvious that it creates programming conflicts from the get-go. Actually changing NPC response on a substantive level across hundreds of NPCs would be a recipe for disaster.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:38 am

Or how about both newspaper and that?

I wouldn't turn it down. I buy all DLC anyway.

Those ideas sound simple to implement, but think of how wide-reaching they'd have to be. You already have NPC responses change based on your progress, and it's obvious that it creates programming conflicts from the get-go. Actually changing NPC response on a substantive level across hundreds of NPCs would be a recipe for disaster.

What response changes are those exactly? As far as disaster...Other games do it. Granted some are pretty buggy at first. But FONV is far more immersive, in that aspect.