I've played the game awhile now, haven't done anything with the civil war though and still haven't been to all the major cities, even though I'm level 49. Today I walked into Windhelm for the first time and I see 2 racist Stormcloaks insulting and threatening this dark elf woman. At the end of it they said they may need to come to her house tonight and teach her a lesson. WTF?!?!? I walked into the main castle and listened to Ulfric and whoever else talk and all, then he sat down and I was fus-ro-dahing the stuff off the main table for fun when I overheard Ulfric and his advisor start to talk about the dark elfs and all. I don't remember exactly how the conversation went but basically Ulfric doesn't care how his men are treating the dark elfs and at the end of it just says keep me informed instead of taking any action against his men. I'm like wow, so these are the bad guys in the game. I saved the game and proceeded to summon 2 dremora lords along with me and my follower in full d?dric and completely beat the [censored] outta everyone in the entire castle. Too bad four in the main hall are "essential" including Ulfric. So eventually after my one-handed raised about five levels I reloaded my save, and immediately went to Solitude and joined the Empire. I cannot believe how many people support the Stormcloaks when they do this kind of [censored]. Unbelievable. Unless that is of course your role-playing a bad/evil guy, then its completely natural to join them.

/e tl;dr Stormcloaks are racist and bad, Empire is the better choice definitely.

Lol , well you got the gist of it right . Ever stop to wonder why the Nords hate the elves though ? It's not quite as black and white as it seems , the story is there if you care to look for it .

And the Empire are Nazi (Thalmor) sympathisers. Plus they don't hesitate to execute innocent civilians (cart ride, anyone?)

Have you ever thought that both choices might not be "good"? The world is not a Hollywood movie. People are very rarely totaly "good". I actually applaud Beth for having these two questionables sides in the game.

What he said .

Lol we don't know who was innocent or not on the cart ride, that's left to the characters imagination as Bethesda said in the documentary that comes with the "legendary" copy of Skyrim. The Empire sympathises with the Thalmor?? Seriously after they had an entire war with them and are still trying to kill them and after legate rikke says herself that she is the true nord joining the Empire trying to stop the Thalmor who is the real enemy while the Stormcloaks are causing a rebellion JUST when Skyrim doesn't need it because of the Thalmor already there? I think you have your facts backwards.

I've never heard Ulfric go on about anything but battle plans, so I cannot comment on any alleged racism there. And the 2 louts you saw harassing the Dunmer lady are your typical low intelligence bullies. You'll find them on every side, so judging a whole army and political movement by a pair imbeciles such as them is not the best way to find out what it's all about.

I don't dispute the fact that there's racism in the Stormcloak army, but how deep it goes is hard to say. It's possible that people in Windhelm try to keep the Dunmer in the Gray Quarter for instance, but some of the fault lies with themselves. Niranye, an Altmer, lives in a nice house and no one seems to mind having her around. Same goes for the owner of the White Phial. Also an Altmer. You'd figure they'd be even worse off than the Dunmer, since their race makes most people think of the Thalmor.

I wish I would've wrote it down or at the least listened better to what they were saying, but it was while Ulfric was on his throne and him and his advisor dude was talking about the dark elfs and he pretty much just said Eh, don't care just keep me informed. The fact that he does nothing about his men he KNOWS harassing dark elfs and even threatening them, "I might have to come to your house tonight and teach you a lesson." This is unacceptable, beyond unacceptable. Unless you condone threats of [censored].

Normally it's unacceptable. But remember, he's fighting a war. Conflict within his ranks may lead to lesser cohesion, and buffoon or not, one of those men is a veteran if I recall correctly.

Excuses all the same. Even if I was roleplaying an evil character anything to do with threatening someone "against their will" if you know what I mean is still a big no-no. If it wouldn't of gotten me a bounty and all the guards in the entire Windhelm city on me I would've slaughtered them right there. Thinking back, next play through I will regardless of the bounty.

Interesting you say the Empire are Nazi (Thalmor) sympathisers - It is quite clear to me through talking to various characters and reading many books that they hate the Thalmor's guts and it really burns them to have to tolerate them for the sake of peace. Remember that in the war it was the Empire that fought against the Thalmor with many of the Nords in their ranks so they too have the same reasons for distrusting and hating the Thalmor. Remember too that the main reason the Nords give for turning on the Empire is the banning of Talos worship - Talos was Tiber Septim who founded the Empire and so basically the Stormcloaks are fighting against their God's empire and people. The Empire could not have been too keen on the banning of the worship of Talos (their emperor and greatest hero) but had gone through some very bad times and signed a peace treaty to allow themselves to recover and live to fight another day. They had to look at the bigger picture even if it burned them. In the game it is the Thalmor who persecute the Nords for Talos worship not the Imperials and if you wish it is quite easy to provoke the Thalmor who are carting off prisoners for Talos worship into attacking you and you can free their prisoner. What is so good about the game is that it is realistic in that there are 'good' guys and 'bad' guys on both sides. I am avoiding taking sides for as long as I can.

Wow, you spent all of five minutes in Windhelm and think you found the "bad guys." I think you're playing the wrong game, there's probably a FPS waiting for your attention.

Lol, as I've said I'm level 49 just haven't been to Windhelm and didn't start the civil war quests until today. Stormcloaks threaten to "teach her a lesson" at her house in the night, and Ulfric does nothing. Doesn't sound exactly like the right side to join now does it???

They aren't Stormcloak soldiers, they're two town drunks. The problems between Dunmer and Nord go back centuries. Dunmer were given refuge in Windhelm (free of charge and with no requirement for taking oaths of fealty) after the Vvardenfell eruption about 200 years before game time. They've been living in a "we keep to ourselves, you keep to yours" way with Nords there ever since. But keep talking to others in Windhelm, including the Altmer in town and the Dunmer who work outside town.

The Dunmer themselves are pretty xenopohobic towards other races. Pretty much all of Tamriel is.

More like prioritizing. At times life won't be like the fairy tales where you have a completely good side and a completely bad side, so you all you can do is choose the lesser evil.

Ah, so then Ulfric just doesn't police his own city, and lets drunks get away with that kinda bs. Still unacceptable.


Uhhh, it would take him just speaking to deal with the situation but he doesn't. All he has to do is just tell guards or something to deal with them, but he doesn't. More and more it's simply looking like they made the Stormcloaks out to be the "lesser" bad guys in this game with the Thalmor being the number ones. Also another unrelated comment but Lydia kept shouting Skyrim for the nords battlecry all the time in battle so I replaced her. I know it just means they want independance from the Empire but what it means and what it sounds like are two different things.

The Thalmor are similar to the Taliban, religiously justified racism of a "chosen people" vs. "infidels".

The Stormcloaks are Nazis - nationalistic socialists. Having only the good of the people in mind (as long as those people are true Nords).


Tha Nazis didn't suddenly pop up and start WW II, over a decade they slowly undermined german society, in that time many jews sympathized with the Nazis, because they still thought of themselves as Germans. Strict regulations in the WW I capitulation agreement, and a meek government that agreed to everything just to preserve the peace, and at the same time was disorganized and corrupt, played into their hands.

Ulfric's resume so far pretty much covers Hitlers until late 1923 (Hitler's coup attempt in Bavaria didn't turn into a full-fledged rebellion.) and the reasoning is the same, the government meekly supports anything the defacto winners of the previous war decide, and pulling the strings in the background is a religiously motivated group of racist colionalists.

Just like there are crime and social problems in all the holds. Been to Markarth yet?

Ulfric is distracted by the war. However he never says anything that I think could be fairly construed as racist. He will say that Skyrim is home not just to Nords. His way of dealing with problems in Windhelm is to keep the status quo, with the races separate. That may make him a bad jarl, but hardly racist.

And, no, the Stormcloaks aren't lesser or greater bad guys. Both sides have grey to them, both have positives. Remember which one tried to cut your head off?

Wow, that makes so much sense it's scary.


Lol, you always do something either unjustified or bad to end up as a prisoner in every single ES game. I've played as a prisoner beginning since Morrowind so it's no surprise there. Only reason its the Empire doing the killing not the Stormcloaks is because they don't control that hold.

The point is that both sides have their positives and negatives, and nuanced characters. A lot of people throw around the idea that Ulfric is racist but they can't point to anything he says or does to support it. It's based on what other people say about him (which is conflicting), surface impressions of Windhelm that don't usually include a lot of conversation with its residents, and misconstruing what the Stormcloaks want- a chance for Nords to rule themselves without imperial interference and the Thalmor's hated presence.

The Nazi comparisons are so stupid and insulting they don't merit response. Maybe someone else has the patience to fisk them properly.

Well I heard them talking about the dark elves in the palace and I can tell you Ulfric did NOT say anything along the lines of "Lets treat the dark elves better here in our city and get the men to stop threatening them at night against their will". Honestly though all points aside the Stormcloak's rebellion would not be all that bad if they weren't trying to do it with the THALMOR KNOCKING AT THE DOOR. How selfish do you have to be to not be able to wait for the people who want the end of the world to come about to die first, then worry about getting your independance? Seems the Empire is the only ones doing the right thing here.

If I put it this way then. We can all agree that an Allied victory against Nazi ruled Germany was the best outcome of WW2, I doubt that there are many, if any, who would dispute this. The allies were not saints, however. There was plenty of [censored] and looting on the western front, as there is in any war. The officers probably dealt with this to the best of their ability, I do not doubt that, but there was only so much they could do. Had they focused too much on trying to forge an army of angel-like knights in shiny armour then the war effort would have been hindered, and had they failed while trying hard to root out the crimes then they would have lost face, also hindering the war effort in the end. Maybe they'd get a few criminals locked up, but at the expense of giving the Germans better odds of winning. None of the 2 outcomes are optimal, but the only one who could give us a perfect world is an omnipotent god, and if there is such a thing it has obviously chosen not to.

And as for JOG's post, I agree there are a few similarities in terms of the rebellion itself, but not enough to call the Stormcloaks Nazis. There are some pretty big differences, just like how the Stormcloaks are feudal in nature, while the Nazis were populist for instance. Nationalistic tendencies =/= Nazism.

Hmmm, your reasoning is sound I give you that. Still though this is not a massive war with millions of troops this is an isolated incident in a city with less then 200 people in it. Something could SURELY be done.

Taliban insurgents are also "veterans". That doesn't make them at all beyond reproach now, does it? And the job of any officer or high ranking person within a military organisation is to curb any such behaviour. Most civilised nation's militaries (see "values and standards of the British Army") Hold their soldiers STRICTLY to such a code and punish any who infract it in any way.

OT: I prefer the Imperials because they are far more sophisticated, cultured and cosmopolitan. The emporer was a weak man who needs replacement, but the stormcloaks are the skyrim equivalent of the BNP or other fascist nationalist groups.

He doesn't say anything against the dark elves. He brushes off their concerns, because he's caught up in the war. Like I said, that may make him a bad jarl, but it's not racist- at least no more racist than the Dunmer themselves are towards Nords and everyone else. Just spend some more time talking to the residents, like the Altmer vendor, who has a different view of the Dunmer problem.

As far as the Thalmor, they aren't just knocking at the door- the empire has let them in to Skyrim and is helping them enforce the Talos ban. The White Gold Concordat is not acceptable to some people, and they see the empire as having sold them out. It's been thirty years since the Concordat was signed, and there's no sign the empire is going to do anything to fight the Dominion. The opposite, in fact.

LOL you are so wrong. Have you ever joined the Empire? Legatte Rikke is a nord who joined the Empire because her parents were in it as well, when you question her basically she doesn't like the Stormcloaks because they are causing a rebellion as the Empire is trying to fight the THALMOR.