There's nothing for it, since the truce is desperately needed, but still. My character doesn't care for criminal scum in general, and so he isn't particularly happy that the Empire and Stormcloaks are swapping the Rift and the Reach - and the Silver-Bloods and Blackbriars are going to actually become Jarls of Markarth and Riften. Again, there's nothing to be done about it, and no use crying over spilled milk, but it kinda svcks that those two jackasses are going to profit even more from the war.

The truce negotiation is a waste of time. It's just what you need to do to reassure Balgruuf.

I didn't want to see Maven become Jarl of Riften so I swapped Markarth for Winterhold instead. I think some players get the option for Dawnstar instead of Winterhold, which isn't too bad because the jarl of Dawnstar is a grumpy old man, and Winterhold village only consists of four buildings so who rules it is no big deal.

The Silver-Blood who becomes jarl is the likeable one in the family anyway, so I didn't mind that bit so much. It felt right giving that city back to the Stormcloaks because of its history.

I also made Ulfric pay compensation for the massacre at that village.

I'm not playing the Civil War quest line but I was happy enough with that outcome, it seemed balanced enough.

I'm not playing the Civil War either. If you finish the Civil War the negotiations aren't needed. My character's a Nord, but he's a Companion and is pretty strictly neutral in the war. He's very much against the banning of Talos-worship, but doesn't trust Ulfric completely and ultimately views the Thalmor as the real threat. I did make sure that Elynwen (or however you spell her name) was kicked out of the council chambers, but I insisted on being completely fair to both parties. Swapping Markarth for Winterhold would have pretty much screwed the Empire over, and I refused to do that. If the Empire was gonna give up a major hold, they were gonna get one in return, and not a little town like Winterhold is now.

They did get compensation for the massacre since I sided with Ulfric on kicking the Thalmor harpy out of the room.

But seriously, both Thongvor Silver-Blood and Maven Blackbriar are scumbags. I hated to see either of them profit from the war. One of them allowed terrorists to operate for his own purposes, and the other is in cahoots with the Thieves' Guild. Both Markarth especially Riften are hives of scum and villainy, thanks to those two.

You can give the Imperials both Dawnstar and Winterhold in exchange for Markarth. That is probably more balanced. I decided not to give them Dawnstar as well but it was presented as an option.

My character sided with the Stormcloaks and sided rather very partially. I played the thing through a few times and didn't like any outcome, so that's what I ended up doing, in the end.

In many ways it's a pretty good copy of RL peace negotiations, which frequently involve doing unpleasant deals with unpleasant people, just to get the killing to stop. But unless you have the power to force a better deal (and the player does not) then it's the deal you're stuck with.


Out of interest, does anyone know if it's possible to fail?

No, but you can use your speechcraft skill to favor one side and get them a better deal. I think there's quite a few possible outcomes involving Markarth, Riften and the smaller holds like Winterhold, Falkreath and Dawnstar. It rearranges the chess pieces on the war board.

Frankly I wished that they could have just agreed to the truce with no swapping. Better that than have those two jerks becoming Jarl.

I just alluded to this in another topic. I had to do it over so the silver-bloods don't get in. I think I saved Elisif as well. But overall I wanted to dictate terms - not get stuck making forced choices myself. I haven't traveled back to those places yet, so I can't see the changes. For what it's worth, I will not give satisfaction to the Blades either. Parth is my bud!

Does anyone know if anything changes if you complete most of the civil war quests before you negotiate the truce?

The moment you do the battle for whiterun the truce is no longer an option if I remember right.

That would be nice but that's not how politics works.

Well, to be honest, why bother swapping? In my game, they each won one major Hold and lost one major Hold. So what was the point in swapping at all, since they essentially came out even?

Different holds have different resources/tactical advantages.

It's like saying that if there was a second American Civil War, with each sides' capital being D.C. and LA, that trading New Vegas for New York would be exactly the same.

Markarth has incredible significance to the Stormcloak rebellion. Not to mention all of the silver

Well, granted.

I alway go this route:
-Kick out the Thalmor ambassador
-Swap Markath for Dawnstar
-Agree for a compensation and...
-Agree for giving also Winterhold to the imperials

Why?

The Stormcloacks may think to have made a gain but the Reach is under constant siege by the Forsworn. The Stormocloack limited resources will be spread thin between two fronts: the empire and the internal resistance. I already 'accidentally' killed one of the silverblood guys while letting Madanach escape (and without having a a bounty, too!), his brother will be exiled once the town will be conquered again by the imperials in the civil war campaign.

Also, the civil war campaign will be shorter for the imperials (only two holds to get)

I also don't understand why everybody thinks that the Jarl of Riften is a 'good' person. True, Maven is a mob kingpin but the current jarl is no better.
-She disgraced her own older son for voicing his opinion. The younger son (the new future jarl) is a spoiled and arrogant brat.
-While in the throne room, it's possible to hear a conversation that shows how much she cares for her subjects. Her Stewart has a carriage prepared for escape in case Riften should fall and she says: "Good, Should Riften fall, it's fitting that only its ruler shall escape". Coward and totally unlike a nord Jarl should be.
-She is also so dumb (or complacent) that she trusts a corrupt Stewart and Maven.

Maven may be ruthless but she's always fair in her dealings with people who trust her. Also, she let the disgraced son of the former Jarl live in the castle when she takes over.

Well, yeah. My complaint wasn't that the Jarl of Riften was worth shedding a tear over, just that a couple scumbags benefited from the swap.

i side with the imperials but i traded markarth and falkreath for riften. Why?

Trading markarth is a must, you cant really change it. But markarth is under the attack of forsworns frequently like what some people said earlier on. Thongvar may be an idiot but i took care of his brother, who is now in the void. Jarl Laila isnt a good ruler at all. Sure, she might be an honorable jarl but look at her family and she only cares for her own safety and is too naive. Maven at least does better than her but sadly she is a scumbag too. Cant deny it either.

Lastly, although falkreath is an imperial hold, the jarl is a totally [censored] milk drinker. His uncle does better than him, so i kick him out and let dengeir be jarl.
And then after the civil war ima kick the corrupt jarls of dawnstar, winterhold, and markarth out. Sadly dengier has to step down again

Eh, Guild Master of the Thieves Guild is seeing no issue with this trade. Maven's been good for him, financially. ^.^

I just screwed over everyone entirely on my main. Gave the Stormcloaks Markarth, but the Empire got compensation for Karthwasten, AND Dawnstar, AND Winterhold. The Empire's gains did not outweigh the loss of a well-fortified city like Markarth and its silver, and the Stormcloaks lost half of their territory. Then, after the truce was signed, I did the Cidhna Mine quest in Markarth, absolutely screwing over the new Jarl and the Stormcloaks. So now, thanks to my guy (an agent in the employ of the King of Sentinel in Hammerfell), has completely screwed over both sides of the civil war. He also tossed Elenwen out for good measure.

Screwing over both sides does not help Hammerfell in the slightest.

I didn't like it at all. I reloaded, and fought the civil war, then finished the main quest. Balgruuf can KMA. Psst. it doesn't make Alduin any tougher.

But...but screwing both sides over doesn't help anybody but the Thalmor! Are you now or have you ever been a dirty, stinking, milk-drinking Thalmorist?!