I find this request rather simple (spoilers):


When I was asked to kill a target by Astrid (when you get kidnapped after sleeping in a bed), I was certain that killing Astrid wouldn't be possible since she obviously was important to the Dark Brotherhood quests, and important characters are invincible in this game. I did what she asked for, and was later told that I could join the Dark Brotherhood (even though I don't want to do so on that character).

However, I later found out that it was in fact possible to kill Astrid, so I obviously regretted that I didn't do so. I talked to some of my friends about this, and they seemed to be in the same boat.

My request: Give the players a second chance of destroying the Dark Brotherhood. I mean, your character knows the password to their hideout, and the quest is available if you just kill Astrid, so why not make it possible to kill them even if you do as Astrid asks?

And also: Why can't we destroy the Thieves Guild? I mean, there is a guy in the house of the Riften jarl who says something in line with "we should just gather some men and storm the place", so why can't we just do so? And if we'll be able to destroy the thieves guild, I want to be able to destroy them even if you have already done Brynjolf's dirty-work.

http://www.gamesas.com/forum/178-skyrim-cheats-hints-and-spoilers/, you should probably use it for a thread such as this. I'll see if I can request a mod move it to the proper forum.

Yeah, it's odd to me that you have only the one chance to do that. It's not like going halfway through the DB quests makes any more of a difference than never having started it. If you don't do the DB questline Bethesda can always write into the story that some other NPC did what you would've done.

The only reason I can think of for this would be that something is planned in an expansion. The TG's quests have less of a would-be impact on the main or CW questlines than the DB.

When she kidnaps you, you don't have to kill the people in the execution hoods and kill Astrid instead. After you do this, a quest will pop up in your journal stating "destroy the DB". I don't remember the rest but somebody asks asks you to go to the DB sanctuary and that person gives you the password and you can go wreak havoc and loot their armor.

Because Maven Black-Briar controls the city of Riften, any attempt to raid the guild would fail because she'd tip them off. They'd scatter and regroup again later.
Secondly, you need evidence you can't kill someone because you suspect they are members of the thieves guild you need proof. Hanging around in the The Ragged Flagon means nothing, its a bar and open to the public. The actual guild hall is behind a secret entrance. We are also talking about thieves not murderers. The guild is more or less dead before the PC shows up wiping them out just leaves room for another organization to take its place the following day.

The Dark Brotherhood are all killers, murder is a requirement to join the organization. So simply raiding the sanctuary and killing everyone inside is justified. They also have no one to warn them of their impending doom.

I chose to do it this time and probably again. Look at it this way:

-Astrid betrays you anyways
-You deal with the crazy Cicero and the night mother
-You have to murder people, but Grelda the Kind definitely deserves it!

I also wish that you could destroy the Dark Brotherhood at any point in time. It irritates me that Astrid, and countless others, are invincible. Also, I had recently heard of a good suggestion to destroying the Thieves Guild. During the initiation when you must plant the stolen ring on the Dark Elf, you should be able to plant the stolen ring on Brynjolf to get him arrested. That would have made things really interesting. And to another poster, you don't have to necessarily kill the members to destroy the guild. You could just get them all thrown into prison, perhaps outside of Riften, to stop their criminal activity. Then there could even be a point where the members all escape and try to get revenge. That was a big opportunity for some really interesting quests. A shame none of it is in Skyrim.

That plan would completely and utterly fail and here's why. Brynjolf would know exactly what happened and he'd say. "I didn't see the ring, HE/SHE did and planted it on me I saw HIM/HER sneaking about Madesi's stand." Seeing that Maven basically controls the city she'd see that Brynjolf was released and you'd be arrested for theft. Which could be a hilarious way to just close off the guild quest forever so it doesn't hang around in quest menu. One of the sayings in Riften is the guards check with Maven Black Briar before arresting anyone. Trying should still be an option I'm just telling you why it would blow up in your face.

Helping Riften get rid of the Black-Briar control and uncover the secrets of the thieves guild sounds like a nice questline in my opinion....

Wouldn't be too bad.

+ those points are invalid, not like you couldn't kill Maven, or/and infiltrate the guild to find out everything you need and then mess them up from the inside.

What you said is mostly true, but Bethesda could have added a short questline that involves killing Maven. Then the Thieves Guild would no longer have diplomatic immunity and could be framed and arrested. Or perhaps framing Brynjolf without killing Maven first would have it blow up in your face, but you could take your own initiative and kill her before framing him. That would add some diversity to how the game world reacts to your actions. I wish there were a few ways to destroy the Thieves Guild, it would add some very interesting quests.

Exactly

I would love to see a quest that made you get into the thieves hideout by stalking a thief that is about to enter through the secret entrance.

This questline could maybe give some depth to Mjoll as well if she becomes a character that aids you in your fight against the thieves...

Ah, I never even thought about that. I always hated how most followers don't have deep backgrounds. This approach would really add to Mjoll's character, no doubt.

l always hated how lack of Bethesda's development ends up in Mjoll hating on the thieves guild hard, but then after she joins you she's totally alright with you stealing, killing and doing who knows what kinds of sick stuff.

You can't eliminate organized crime, crippling it into a impotent shell is about the best you can do and thats the Thieves Guild before you show up. Its already dying it doesn't need any help from you.

I wish destorying the Dark Brotherhood was longer, such as escorting Gaius Maro on his travels through the holds, foiling the assassination at the wedding, capturing the assassin who poisons the decoy emperor and from him getting the password to eliminate the sanctuary at Falkreath beforw a final mission to the Dawnstar Sanctuary to face the ghosts of all the assassins you've killed so far(and more) before incinerating the night mother's corpse.

It depends on what you mean by 'eliminate.' Organized crime, whether dealing with killing or stealing, will never be stopped. However, you can certainly slow it down by killing or imprisoning the current guild members. If you kill all the members of the Dark Brotherhood, do you really think there will never be an organization to replace it? Of course there will be another, and the same is true with the Thieves Guild. When I say "destroy the Thieves Guild," I simply mean dealing with the current members, which could lead to quests of revenge quite easily, or even a NEW Thieves Guild being built. Then you could choose to join them or stop them as well. It would add a lot of depth to the guilds, no doubt.

As for your other comment, I agree. I wish destroying the Dark Brotherhood was an entire quest line itself. I could see many ways Bethesda could approach that in a fun, intriguing way. Maybe you could interfere with their assassination attempts to not only save their victim, but kill them as well. And that alone could bring you to some interesting areas.

If you can destroy the dark brotherhood, then why wouldn't you be able to destroy the Thieves Guild?


That sounds like an awesome questline as well. Incinerating the night mother's corpse would be an epic way of ending a questline.

Despite the name of the quest, you can't really destroy the Dark Brotherhood either. And, in a way, they are already in a similar situation as the TG. There is no listener. They are relying on reports of the Black Sacrament to locate their contracts. Their leader is on a power trip and things are already going downhill. Killing Astrid and then carrying out Maro's request to "Destroy the Dark Brotherhood" just slows them down even more by thinning out their numbers, but it does not wipe them out. If anything, it gives them the opportunity to regroup as a more pure incarnation of the DB, without Astrid's corruption and her husband's weirdness.

I do, however, love the idea of being able to join then tear them down from within. That would have been much more entertaining.

That would be awesome. Maybe we could have a questline that focuses on "destroying" the dark brotherhood, but it's up to you how you're going to do that. Choosing to destroy them from the inside could be one way for example.

The Dark Brotherhood was once a world spamning organization that operated completely outside the law. It had no need of corrupt officals to offer it protection. It had supernatural sanctuaries. It had a history and a culture that held it together across all the proviences. Every province had its own independent thieves guild supported by corrupted guards and officals. Each would operate a little differently.


The only surviors are Babette and Cicero, the jester would return to Dawnstar sanctuary to await the coming of the next Listner. (which might not happen in Cicero's lifetme). And I doubt Babette would stick around with everyone dead. She'd have no knowledge of Cicero or the password to the Dawnstar Sanctuary. Once people lose faith in the dark brotherhood and the black sacrament the organization is dead. Astrid keeps the memory alive, without her the Black Sacrament would go completely unanswered and eventually no one would perform the ritual. No ritual, no contact with the nightmother and even if a Listener is found he/she would have no purpose if no one prays to the nightmother. Its why killing the Emperor is so important it reminds the world that the Dark Brotherhood isn't gone and no one is untouchable.

Another guild could rise to replace the Dark Brotherhood but it wouldn't carry the name, the weight or even the supernatural backing.

Good points. But to my thinking (purely conjecture, naturally) - Cicero was already en route to the Falkreath Sanctuary. I helped him get his wagon fixed so he was on his way. Anyone who has tried to track down an NPC on the road knows that NPC travel times are a strange thing. It's possible he arrives and Babette goes with him to Dawnstar. (I'd like to believe she's kept alive, er, undead for more than just the whole "kids don't die in Skyrim" thing.) We don't know where Babette is while the others are getting killed.

Cicero may be a complete hokerr, but he's also the purest of the bunch in a way. His Dear Mother is his whole reason for living. That kind of passion is hard to stifle. In a world where the PC doesn't become the listener, there is an opening for another to do so. Few things are truly fated in the game, (*eta: at least beyond an NPC telling you it's fated) and I find it hard to believe that the PC can truly wipe out the DB. I believe that, together, Babette, Cicero and the Night Mother can bring the DB back to life.

So in my mind, it's a combination of considering the remaining characters, and how the game devs leave openings for stuff like this.

People's argument against destroying the thieves guild regarding maven is rubbish, she couldn't do anything if you wandered down into the ratway and shouted every stinking thief to the ground.

If you tried to get the thieves arrested while the city is still under Mavens control then yes she would quickly free them, but then that's clearly not the way to proceed, unless the quest also involved you destroying the black-briars first.

I completely agree with the OP though, I want to be able to destroy the db anytime and want a quest involving destroying the thieves guild and breaking Mavens influence over Riften.

Allowing the destruction of the Night Mother would be a bold move because that would mark the end for true/old DB in all of Tamriel...kinda'.

Of course, Bethesda could always come back in TES IX and say that Cicero was a crazy poser and that the corpse he had wasn't the true Night Mother. Now go on this quest to rescue the true Keeper and Night Mother from the ancient Dwemer ruin Flanchinaal.

Good point



That would be a horrible way to explain things IMO

the problem with getting rid of the thieves guild is wherever you get poor areas, or very rich people, there are going to be thieves, it's not like the dark brotherhood where you have to kill and worship a creepy corpse. And no matter how much it is stomped down eventually enough of the thieves will band together to create a guild. Honestly raiding wouldn't help, they're theives, they'd do what they do best and make themselves scarce.