TL;DR - Want to sell Skyrim DVD version. UK EULA is different from US (which explicitly forbids transferring the license). So would I be entitled to ask Bethesda/Valve/whoever to reset the Steam authentication so the disk can be sold as a functioning product?

Edit: Added a few annotations so you can skip to the most relevant parts.

Hello everyone.

I'm posting here as a precursor to writing to ZeniMax Europe (Skyrim's European distributors, or something like that) to ask for clarification on the matter of selling my copy of the PC version of Skyrim. I'd like to know if anyone else has raised anything similar with Bethesda or Zenimax. I'd be even more interested to hear an official line from Bethesda or a suitably qualified representative.

First a few disclaimers: (Mainly for moderators. Maybe glance at 2-iii.)

(1) I have used the search function and found one vaguely related thread (from before Skyrim was released). I don't think this is a well worn debate, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

(2) In what I say below I will mention the subjects of DRM and piracy.
i - I don't want this to turn into a DRM/piracy debate.
ii - I am not advocating piracy so I believe I am in compliance with forum rules. I would ask other participants to ensure they remain similarly so.
iii - I briefly raise the question of legality vs morality by way of discussion. It's a really interesting topic, but probably not helpful here. I'm sure there are plenty of places on the internet to debate it.

(3) I've put this in 'General Discussion' because I don't see a more suitable category. Mods please feel free to move it elsewhere if there is somewhere more suitable, or let me know if this is more a topic for Steam representatives than the Bethesda or Skyrim communities.


Background (You can skip this if you want. Basically I want to sell Skyrim .)

I bought the DVD version of Skyrim for PC shortly after its release. I played it, and found it reasonably enjoyable. That being said, I'm not as enamoured with it as a lot of people are (video-game journalists in particular!) and don't have the inclination to play it any longer. So I put an advert up to sell my copy on the classifieds section of a forum I visit. Mods there were quick to respond indicating that the way Steam DRM works for Skyrim made my disc completely worthless to anyone else (I'd not bought a game for 4 or 5 years and this fact had escaped my attention). Since the 'activation' process ties my copy to the free Steam account I registered with a throwaway e-mail address, and the Steam terms and conditions prevent me from transferring the Steam account (which I have no other use for), I cannot sell the DVD as a functioning copy of Skyrim.

I'm not prepared to trade on the ignorance of an unsuspecting buyer and sell them something non-functional. It looks like I'd be able to sell it through Amazon (there are 'used' copies available) but if I were to do that I'd also have to point out that the only way to run the game would be by breaking the authentication as if it were a pirated copy. I'm not advocating this practice; I'm just saying that we all know it happens and I'm sure most of us could find a way of doing it with just a few minutes searching Google.

Whilst I personally don't see an immediate moral problem here (it's akin to the practice of using no-cd cracks on older games simply to avoid the annoying sound of your CD/DVD drive spinning up; note that Blizzard effectively included a no-CD crack in one of the later updates for Diablo 2) it's still technically illegal.


'You bought a license, not a copy' (Yes, I know. Here's why that's not relevant to my question. You can skip this if you already see why.)

An obvious response is that the terms of the EULA make it quite clear that what has been purchased is a license, not a copy (maybe 'copy' isn't the right term here, but I think you get the idea). This is sometimes brought up in other discussions I've read involving debates over DRM. This is not a helpful response. This is a standard feature of the EULA for proprietary software. It was exactly the same ~10 years ago when major retail chains used to carry a wide range of second-hand software (including games). To illustrate the point, here is a choice selection from the EULA for Hitman 2: Silent Assassin (probably the last game I bought before Skyrim! Well ... not quite, but almost. )

So the issue is clearly not that of license vs copy, but that of the terms and conditions surrounding the transferability of license. Here is where it gets interesting.


Differences between the US and UK EULAs (Read from here to the end.)

In the US the matter is very straightforward. The EULA actually states:

They later suggest that right of sale can be obtained with express permission of the licensor but the point is that there is a clear statement in the EULA that provides sufficient ground to justify the implementation of a DRM system which prevents Skyrim being traded on the second-hand market.

But this line is conspicuously absent from the UK and Australian versions (I cannot read French, Italian or German, and my Spanish is not good enough for the Spanish version; I would be interested to know which version they are, or if they contain their own clauses governing transfer). From what I can tell, no mention of transfer is made in the non-US versions. All we get is:

And given that second-hand trade exists for any other commodity you can name, including other PC titles (older games like Hitman 2 are a clear case in point; provisions for second-hand ownership are included in their EULA) and including non-PC versions of Skyrim, is there some other ground on which Bethesda, Steam or whoever can effectively prevent my reselling the PC DVD, or am I entitled to ask Bethesda/Steam/whoever to recind the activation and enable me to trade the DVD as a fully functioning product?


Conclusion

So, as I said in the introduction, has anyone else noticed this and heard anything official from Bethesda on it? Has anyone else successfully sold their DVD copy of Skyrim? Or is there some other feature of the Skyrim or Steam EULAs which has eluded my attention?

Thanks for your time. Please keep your responses polite and within forum rules. I'd love to talk about the rights and wrongs of DRM, piracy and the broader practices of software companies (DLC is currently a hot topic in some places) but we should save those things for another time and another thread.

short answer: nobody will be down with you selling the game they made for money, regardless if you payed for it too. Cause if you didn't do that whoever buys yours for cheaper they would have bought it from them maybe just greeds and clemens

Nothing wrong with selling used pc games. However dont you need to sell your steam account as well?
PS: No I'm not gonna read your wall of text.

I didn't read a word of that, but if it's tied to steam; it won't work on other people's accounts. If you're trying to sell your Steam account: I'm pretty sure it's not allowed.

The license is different because of EU customer laws. We just don't give corporations that satisfaction of writing crap in the EULA like the Americans do. (This isn't against Beth or Zenimax, this is against EA and their first Origin-EULA )

But as you rightfully pointed out, it is illegal to sell your Steam account. It however shouldn't be to sell the game or the license if you don't use them anymore. I've heard of accounts were it was possible for people to revoke a license from a steam account in Germany, thus freeing it for another, but don't take my word for it.

No it's not. It's not allowed if you ask Valve, it is allowed if you ask the law. So illegal is tad over the top.

Too bad you can't just "gift" the game to the person, through steam, who would be buying the disk from you.

I think saying 'nobody' is putting it too strongly. if you read 'nobody' literally it's obviously false; people release freeware, young game designers may initially be more interested in high circulation/building their reputation than raw profits; I'm sure you can easily think of more examples.

But aside from that, a good commercial system balances the interests of producers with consumers (to put it simply and naively). Since producers are also consumers, and most consumers are producers in some way or other, balance is obviously the goal. The second-hand market is part of that balance. It's one of the reasons why replayability (for games), or durability for physical goods more generally, are valued by consumers and featured in the way that your product or brand is marketed.


Yes, I could perhaps have been more concise. (I'll add a TL;DR).


Why didn't you read it? Your reply is unfortunately completely useless since I acknowledged both those features. Thanks anyway.


Thanks for the reply. Even second-hand reports like this are some encouragement. I'll update this thread if I'm successful, then people will be able to take your word for it!


Yep, though I don't think the inability to use Steam to facilitate second-hand trading is anywhere near as objectionable as its apparent use to prevent it altogether for non-US inhabitants.