Todd Howard thinks Call of Duty has RPG elements!

http://spoonybardreviews.wordpress.com/2011/07/08/bethesda-we-dont-need-to-dumb-down-skyrim/

COD does have RPG elements though...

Why are you posting an old article anyway?

That article might explain one or two complaints I have about Skyrim. How can we blame Todd for making the latest instalment of an RPG franchise be rather mediocre as an RPG, if he doesn't even know what an RPG is to begin with?

What he actually said : “You look at Call of Duty, the most popular game in the world, and that’s actually pretty hardcoe. At the end of the day, it’s a hardcoe game, has RPG elements in multiplayer, making classes, picking perks

What that gets read as if it suits someone's argument : "Call of Duty is an rpg".

Having classes is hardly an RPG element unless they're used for something role-play related. Whether you want a sniper rifle or an asault rifle is hardly role-play related. Suggesting that it's an RPG element implies that role-playing is all about assigning numbers and making level-up decisions, and if that's what Todd thinks then it sure explains quite a lot about Skyrim.

A lot of the older, hardcoe, old school gamers would say the numbers are exactly what defines a crpg, and if you actually have to role play (aka LARP, let's pretend, Barbie dress up and worse), then the game has failed because your imagination is doing the dev's job for them. Choosing whether to get better at that, or this, is a role playing element, even if it's not in a bona fide role playing game. Obviously there are other elements that COD is missing, and no one would call their in game avatar their 'character' in a shooter like this, but levelling and stats are, while not 'what it's all about', a defining characteristic of crpgs.

I can relate to what TH is saying though, CoD does have a "Class" kinda RPG feel to it. You choose your weapons, perks, or w/e other upgrades to use on the battlefield. Just because they don't have a Shield and Sword doesn't mean RPG elements are involved. Trust me.. I LOATHE CoD and I can't believe I'm even typing this up..

End of the article is the truth though, and one of my main reasons I really do love Skyrim. How you essentially create your own "class".. it might not be in fancy skill menu or let you name it but it's in your mind.

"With Skyrim, your skills increase as you use them, making an easy curve of learning and allowing more freedom with the type of character you want to play as."

And how most ppl that play Oblivion don't know what they want or what will fit and end up restarting. True I might be restarting alot in Skyrim as of late.. but that's because I'm trying out all the races. Something I didn't even do in TES IV. Only played a Nord and Breton.. thats it.

In Skyrim I already have my 2 Characters and am working on 2 others in between.

That's what essentially makes an RPG for me. When I have to really delve into my character's very being and RP my heart out. Otherwise I probably wouldn't play Skyrim as much as I do (IE. More then all of my games..).

It definately has the TES feel, but more of an organized system and better leveling like Fallout does. Can't wait to see what the Creation Engine and Skyrim can do for Fallout 4.. I know it'll be MY personal Most Anticipated Game Ever!

EDIT: Fixed typos

I posted the link because Im interested in y'alls opinion. Which can make or break the game for some ppl.

Thing is, if you consider class to define how you should play the game, CoD classes perform exactly that function, arguably moreso than it has in TES games post-Daggerfall.

Did my "class" really affect anything in Oblivion to the same degree as the choice between Stopping Power, Hardline, and Cold-Blooded? If you've never played CoD multiplayer, you won't realize that the choice above does impact how you play, sometimes significantly. Whereas I challenge anyone who doesn't pre-create a character and role to remember the major skills/class of their last Oblivion character without looking. (I can, but it's kind of predictable on my end)

Numbers are used in cRPGs for a reason, however. They're not used just because gaining another level and assigning more numbers is role-play in itself but because it helps the feeling of character progression, and character progression is part of the role play experience. Regarding forced role-playing, I would like to see the hardcoe RPG gamer who complains about having to role-play, as long as he's not forced to role-play in a specific way or role and as long as we're talking actual role-play rather than the "here's a blank paper, make up a story" dialogue and quests in Skyrim.

LARP isn't exactly a cRPG so let's keep that out of it. Having to play dress-up is also not particularly role-play intensive (unless we also have to RP taking a dump and wiping our butt afterwards), though having to pick an attire that isn't obviously giving you away as something other than what you want some person to believe, well, that's a nice RP feature. If I want to pretend I'm not a member of the Thieves Guild then I shouldn't wear their armor. Makes sense. If I want to pretend to be a Stormcloak courier then i should wear their armor. If I wear Legion armor while walking into a Stormcloak camp then they should attack me on sight. Makes sense.

Classes are used in RPGs for a purpose. Classes in themselves are not RPG'ish, but classes for the purpose of character progression is an element you'd consider typical to cRPGs and RPGs in general. By the way, the heroes in the Heroes of Might and Magic series had classes and attributes and could learn skills. Was Heroes an RPG or a TBS game? I wouldn't even say it had RPG elements, because the heroes were mercs for hire who could be customized. Yes, they would learn over time but they were not "characters".

You're right in that if I have to imagine everything that happens with the game doing sod all to help my imagination then it's a failure of the game. That isn't because everything has to be measured in numbers and classes and whatnot, but rather because actions have consequences. If I imagine that the smith walks in on me doing his wife then she's likely to have a soap eye the next day. I can of course imagine that she does but when I enter the shop and look at her, there's no such mark. And the smith isn't acting any differently towards me than he always is, which is also rather odd.

What it comes down to is a distribution of responsibility. It is the responsibility of the game developer to make a world that is immersive and responds to play actions. It's not my responsibility, as an RPG gamer, to imagine *everything* and pretend it happens, when clearly it isn't happening in the game world that I'm actually seeing on the screen.

I can pretend to have taken a bad fall and not use sprint for a couple of days. That's fine with me, the game shouldn't force that, but I can choose to experience it. I can't pretend that a person responsible for mass murder didn't just give me back evidence that would condemn him and I can't pretend that I gave this evidence to proper authorities when said person is still walking around. I also can't pretend to be a good Legion soldier when so many Stormcloak camp leaders are utterly immortal. How can I cleanse the world from stormcloaks when I can't even clear out a single camp?

Skyrim is definitely lacking in the consequences front, no arguing, and that should be another defining trait of rpgs, though I have to disagree with those who say it isn't an rpg at all. An action/rpg is still an rpg imho.

And there's the problem, this blurring of genres. Skyrim is an rpg with a lot of action (and some obvious pandering to the action genre, my opinion, to it's detriment, others are free to disagree), COD is a shooter with, and I still maintain the original argument, some rpg elements. Whether they were pandering to those who wanted a bit of depth, or it's the illusion of depth, or whether it has really improved the series, there are those whose opinions are more informed than mine.
The fact is those lines are more blurred now. No one is saying COD is an actual rpg in any way, shape or form, the real questions are "how much did pure action games and shooters influence Skyrim?" and "is this a good thing." While Skyrim obviously has influences from other genres, and was designed to be accessible, the answer to the second is purely a matter of opinion.

@Black Spider, not trying to be trite or facetious, but would it be fair to describe Heroes as a game that has 'rpg elements'?

I dont see the source of dispute.

Gaining experiance and leveling up are definatly traditional RPG mechanics/elements.

It was a good move by the CoD franchise to incorperate this aspect into their game... I've played alot of games that, while I was playing thought to myself " this game would have been better if it was an rpg " ( assasins creed )

In fact, while I realy enjoy rp'ing in bethesda games, I have friends who just obsess over the leveling mechanics.

I mostly agree with what you said, except for the obvious. Regarding Heroes, you could of course describe it as TBS with RPG elements, but I don't think it would be fair. It's a TBS game and the classes of your heroes are not for the sake of character customization but rather for army leader customization, and I think that distinction is overlooked a bit too often.

I think it's probably more accurate to say that CoD has elements of an RPG element, as do many other games, including the Heroes series. Whether having an element of an element of some concept is an element of the concept in itself is a rather abstract discussion.

For instance, I don't think the Diablo games are RPGs at all, rather they're action games with RPG elements. Those elements being some form of customizable character progression based on player choice, character-based skills, and of course the concept of going out on adventure and doing quests for people you barely know and with little hope of a quest reward that is worth all the trouble it took to solve the quest.

CoD simply has classes and some perks or whatnot. It's not really meant for character progression, at least not as far as I know. It's just classes and perks, because everybody knows that classes and perks are cool. So if you have classes and perks then you have an element of role-playing games? Really? Personally, I like to think that RPGs are more than that, deeper than that, but I don't think this is something that really warrants a major discussion here.

The one true defining aspect, you hit the nail on the head there.

In call of duty you gain exp when killing other players... which causes your soldier to level or rather rank up,various perks ,upgrades , weapons and atachments are only available when certain experiance teiers are reached.

Basicly you play, get exp and lvl up...

I think your getting hung up on terminology though.... if you dont like " elements " replace it with " mechanics."

I don't think it's that important what label a game has placed upon it. There are an increasing number of games that don't fit neatly into one genre or other. For instance, how should you classify a game like Mass Effect 1? It's an FPS, an RPG and an interactive story in fairly equal parts.

At heart, CoD is still an FPS but it does have RPG elements. Skyrim is not as 'pure' an RPG as Daggerfall but it is greatly enhanced in other respects. The only thing that matters is whether you enjoy it or not.

Numbers, classes, character development and so on maketh the rpg, I've heard it all over the years.

Any of the above can be applied to almost any game. There's no such thing as an RPG nowadays and I'm amazed people still try to justify why one game isn't an RPG, yet another one is. For example, lets talk about numbers. Football Manager has numbers, it has plenty of them, yet almost everyone that has played it wouldn't consider ever calling it an rpg. i'm also assuming a role, which in my head is even more important to do in a game like Football Manager than it is in a game such as skyrim.

Borderlands, Fable and Enslaved have perks, numbers (albeit very limited) and because of this, it could be argued they're just as much an RPG as Skyrim. What, Skyrim has exploration? So does GTA, RDR, Fable and many other games.

Then you have the likes of Sacred, Dungeon Siege, Diablo etc which offer virtually the same gameplay as D&D Daggerdale, yet a lot of people consider the latter to be pushing the limits of what defines an RPG.

The term 'RPG' is mostly now churned out by those with superiority complexes. It's like the whole console v PC thing. Playing an RPG somehow makes people better than those playing, say, a FPS.

Why must CoD always be brought up...?

i would hazard a guess and say it's because it's one of the most successful gaming IPs ever. Rightly or wrongly, it's always going to be thrown into the mix.

I think you have that last part backwards.... the term " RPG " is being fling about in an attempt to dis-credit games as not meeting the criteria of the genere in an atempt to feel sohow more-knowledgable of the genere.

I guess you could make an argument for GTA being an rpg... but it wouldent be an honest one, and thats the point... it's just becomes self-gratifing mastvrbation at that point.

Its actualy kind of a reflection of the RPG fanbase really... a bunch of self-grandizing nerds, quantifing and disecting our passion in order to feel self-important.

LOL I'm sure you could find these type of friviolus arguments on a comicbook forum....

But I doubt there are many FPS forums arguing about wether or not CoD is a " TRUE " fps because of the rpg elements LOL.

It just shows how out of touch that Todd Howard is and why new leadership is need in the TES Franchise.

Yeah... dont worry about it... it;s just a game.... not a branch of the government.

Maybe you don't care about the franchise, but I do.

Your right I dont.

I've liked every Bethesda game since Morrowind.... If there ever comes a day when I dont... I'll stop playing them.

It's not life and death important... get some perspective... if your gonna be worried and upset make it pertain to somthing that matters

Go feed some Africans or somthin.... care about world hunger... or the trampiling of human rights.... forget about Tod Howard and Elderscrolls.

The actually hilarious part is calling Call of Duty a "hardcoe" game. It's pretty much the definition of a game that caters to the more casual crowds, lol. Hop in, run 'n gun for half an hour, spend perk, hop out and repeat the next day.


Why are you not out "feeding Africans" and "caring about world hunger" instead of posting on an internet forum trying to argue with someone you don't know? It's alright to make completely irrelevant and ridiculous retorts, but then atleast practice what you preach.