At a guess: roguelikes

And boy, wouldn't that be a TES experience.

Yeah... No. This is no MMO.

Realism you say? Everytime someone mentions "realism" about RPG mechanics the interest weeps.

So if you picked up a sword that said "does damage" and was enchanted with "might be something... probably nothing though". It's weight is listed as "I'm not a scale". This would be more immersive for you?

So let me guess you also want to remove HP bars, remove any sort of graphics(because that's too detailed) and you'd also like to replace everything with a simple coin to flip since that way everything is random... am I close?

The honest answer is that it's bad game design.

I think you guys are just arguing for the sake of arguing against the OP. Again options would be great. This is a game, a fantasy one at that I don't know why you demand this arguable value of realism.

If they game was going real on us, things would die in 2 hits including us, I mean I can snowball that whole argument to many other ways and categories.

It will never be a numbers game even if they threw in the effects of the numbers, guessing what is good for you isn't fun when your constantly in doubt whether you made a right character building choice and are constantly tempted to go back all over and redo everything because of something tedious.

Discovering potions is a fun realistic mechanic, nobody really I can see is complaining about things like that here. It makes sense, but its good to know the values of what your getting and interacting with. Even with healthbars on targets its no more realistic to not have them, let alone always looking at the health of a target you are not even hitting/fighting.

You can argue about levels and what other games do or whether its important, but if things don't work on certain levels, then its nice to know it wont. Other RPGs usually control your pace in the game, therefor level restricting they wont put in these mechanics. Realism would be not having any levels, or anything affected by them, so for sanities sake lets stop trying to argue for realism here, for one its a slippery slope and even then becomes either inconclusive or subjective.

The real problem is the availability of this info in game for those that WISH TO LOOK FOR IT or have it. Things like swing times of weapons we wont need to know, because we see them every swing and can become familiar with the timing, but things you would consider playing a number/dice game would be some actual things to measure with, like perks. I don't see D&D players complaining about numbers and these people are the most immersive of RPers.

Agreed. It's inconsistent too; some perks have stats, but not others for some reason.

Doesn't bother me. I think they need to remove the numbers from RPGs altogether. Keep it behind the scenes. let you see your character getting better not be told how much or by what percentage. To me Role playing is not Stat-building. To use a couple of (admittedly linear) examples, the Stalker series and Far Cry 2 allowed a certain amount of choice in a game with no physical development at all. Extreme I know but perhaps at least TES could hide the numbers behind the scenes.

Of course to do that they'd have to get rid of scaling. Scaling seems to be causing most of the the "My character is Level 50 and I can't beat a poodle" complaints.

I agree with you, but the problem with removing numbers altogether (and I'm theorizing here) is most RPGers come from a background where these numbers matter. Like old school D&D folks and stuff. If you take any their numbers, you kinda take away their soul. I know it sounds crazy, but I really believe this. Do you see how passionate some people are with their numbers? People who cry foul 'cause of the concern for the lack of complexity in RPGs nowadays?

I really don't think there is any way you can remove numbers completely from a RPG. To them, you remove the numbers, it's not a RPG anymore.

Way to overreact there. I am not going to justify this and bid you good day.

I just want to ask you, if these perks did explain what they do a little better, as the OP wants, would you be on these forums complaining about it? I mean as if the game was released as such.

I remember the same sort of thing (and the same complaints) over Dragon Age 2 (or some other game). I guess it's something else modern gamers really want.

Look, I'm not blaming any one person in this thread of this, and I'm not even inherently disagreeing with the OP's point, but I think it's funny that everyone around this forum complains about the "hand holding" of Oblivion and Skyrim (quest arrows, map markers, etc...) but then complain about the aspects of the game that actually DO make you do some work and research (Perks not giving you exact values).

This isn't the first time I've seen it, again I'm not even accusing anyone specifically of this, and I don't inherently disagree with the OP. It's just an interesting bit I've noticed.

Totally a matter of taste.... and thus you're welcome to have your opinion. I find it refreshing to have a game that I "just play" and not have to treat as a second job.

Why would you defend vagueness in video game stats, seriously?

I, as a gamer, never had a problem with perks. I understood everything, took the vague yet clearly positive and improving effects of perks for granted and enjoyed the game as it is. I never stopped and thought "Damn, I sure could use some arbitrary %21 to know exactly how the perk pans out" because it's borderline min/maxing for me.

I didn't buy Skyrim for that but I understand others want. Sure, give them the option but keep it OPTIONAL. I don't want to know everything, I want to explore, discover, burn my feet and learn with the imperfections I forged along the way.

Agreed. I think those are mainly the players that have exploited XYZ Perk to gain ABC Perk Level and not having the gear balanced for that Level of Gameplay.

Quite honestly, although I would like the "Reset Skill" console command option on Xbox, I like the idea behind having to thoroughly think before I act, when adding a point to a perk tree. If I know the route that I want to take and that route doesn't include casting Flames or other Destruction spells, then I don't bother with that tree. If I know I want to sneak around more efficiently, but not necessarily assassinate enemies, then I'll stick with more of the sneaking side, over the "Deal awesome damage from behind" perks.

Seems simple enough, for character creation....

Well that is one school of thought. There is another school of thought (us) that is more than happy to have numbers in games. RPG systems with numbers has been so tried/tested/popular/satisfying that it's made it's way into action games. Even COD apes RPG mechanics now.

In an odd irony, RPGs are now aping FPS mechanics and stripping out RPG features....

Because I think more people both NEW AND OLD have been liking this more. Without numbers the game may just feel too simple, repetitive its that or frustrating because everything is unreliable and too much trial and error, like being executed by a guy from 90% that normally hits me for 30% of my hp AND I was blocking.

I have played too many games in my life to call myself anything but a gamer and a long time one, till the day I die or go blind (and I better not or else i'd be wishing for a God just so I can suicide to go attack that mofo).

I like game mechanics to be consistent, reliable and trustworthy but I also like events, AI, the environment to be as dynamic as possible. When I go to the firing ranges I don't like guns to randomly discharge without pulling the trigger... I don't like being randomly punished or kept in the dark so it feels that way.

Unlike that crappy type of genre we call WoW (hotkey gameplay), where everything even combat is all numbers, combat in TES is not auto matic nor number driven, its skill based moreso than just swing, get hit, swing, get hit. Actually paying attention and making wrong choices is more of a part of the game and a threat when in combat instead of hitting tab and numbers on your keyboard and watching results.

If you bought a car and the horsepower on the engine read "Lots of horses, trust us" and the speedometer read "slow/fast/darn fast" you wouldn't ask questions?

In fact, I think it was Hyundai that was Sued a few years back because they listed the WRONG HP on their car engines. Some people don't care about "facts and figures" but a lot of us like numbers and don't enjoy ballpark vague statements about in game decisions that are not reversible.

Yeah I can understand Bethesda thinking that removing stat details would improve immersion, but it would be nice to at least have the option see these numbers somehow.

If the game really wasn't numbers driven, and was more based on chance and vague assumptions of power, I can see why you would not list hard stats. But since this fight system ultimately is just quadratic equations nerdgasming on each other, pretending that it's not is stupid. That's not immersion, that's confusion.

I'm not quite sure that's a fair anology. That's like comparing apples to tigers. Completely different situations and products.

We're talking about a RPG, not a MMO-RPG, which I believe is what a lot of players have been spoiled on. It's shouldn't be about number crunching. It should be about making the choices you want to make, without having to pull out a pen and solving a complicated formula on a napkin. Sure, you should have to put some thought into making a decision, but it shouldn't require Algebra Level 5 Math Skills to make it.

The level system is a staple of TES games for many spell effects, including stuff like Calm, Fury, Turn Undead, etc. There's very little point in stressing that that particular lack is the most vexing when it is a standard part of the franchise. Obviously, if you are immersed, you will imagine that your character tries a spell and no effect is observed. Live and learn (or die and learn if you don't survive via a different method). Same thing as using a weapon in an FPS and seeing no effect. You never know what will happen until you try.

Picking perks without any way of referencing their value is pretty much the developer saying, "Hey pick this so I can laugh as your character is developing into a pathetic wimp".

Especially when they use subjective terms to describe a value... what is greatly increasing to them might be a minor increase to someone else.

I'm old school. We knew everything. TES games are still dice games even if they are trying to hide the dice.

I agree, this is bad design. Taking out the numbers, doesn't make the game seem more "magical", it actually makes it less so, in my opinion.