Being that I never played Morrowind, I was surprised to find out that Tiber Septim made an appearance in it through an avatar named Wulf. After reading about the Septim dynasty (and even the ones before it), I came to have a high respect for each because of the feats that were accomplished in each era and from what I read in another thread, even Tiber Septim said the Empire was crumbling and its days were numbered. With the end of the Septim Dynasty, the novel Infernal City told the story of Titus Mede I's rise to power as Emperor thus giving us a new dynasty to replace the Septims.

Now, before I go into the issue of the Civil War in Skyrim, a little history about the Mede dynasty (spoilers if you have not read the books, read with caution).

Titus Mede I was a colovian warlord when the Empire was still without an Emperor and slowly going back to the days before the Septim Empire united Tamriel. As has been said before in another thread, he was just another guy with power on his mind and he succeeded in taking the Imperial City with 1000 men and was thus crowned the new Emperor. In the novel Infernal City, when Umbriel comes to Tamriel it begins wrecking havoc immediatly after hitting land and at one point Titus' son Attrebus comes to him and tells him of the undead army that has been created from it. During this conversation, Attrebus learns his father knew of the threat already and after asking his father why not attack now rather than wait, Titus gets angry at being lectured and reminds his son how he had taken the city before his coronation. Not too much else happened that reflected on his character, so lets move on.

The second novel, Lord of Souls, details what Umbriel really is and what happens when it reaches The Imperial City. Without going into too much unneeded details, it was an area from Clavicus Vile's realm of Oblivion and its creator used Vile's own power to physically leave the realm though it was still connected. After reaching The Imperial City, another seige begins and it only ends when Vile reclaims his lost power. No book in-game details exactly what happens afterwards, and we jump ahead 200 years.

Now, here we are in Skyrim.. 30 years after the Empire went to war with the Aldmeri Dominion and was nearly destroyed and Skyrim has a Civil War on its hands, started from what happened in The Markarth Incident. According to what we know in-game, the Thalmor took Valenwood which officially recreated the Dominion and then it took Elsweyr when the Khajiit willingly joined after the Thalmor made up a story about bringing the Moons back when they disappeared. At this point, the Aldmeri Dominion became a significant threat to the Empire and The Great War officially began when the Thalmor sent an ambassador to Titus Mede II who declined to acknowledge the White-Gold Concordat. Most of us I think have read the in-game book The Great War which details what happened afterward, so let's move on.

Now, here's my personal opinion on all of this. If Tiber Septim said his Empires time was running out, he could have been referring to the end of his dynasty and the rise of another (in this case the Medes) and yet the Medes don't seem to take any real threats seriously at least until it's too late. Titus Mede I didn't care too much about Umbriel and it ended up at The Imperial City, while Mede II didn't try to organize his Empire for a possible attack from the Aldmeri Dominion. That could mean that the Empire was weakened from within, perhaps from the Thalmor as they did take care of Ocato.. perhaps other things as well that continually weakened it from the inside. Regardless of what was going on in the inner workings of the Empire, the Aldmeri Dominion saw how weak and disorganized it was and nearly destroyed it. Only by the signing of the White-Gold Concordat was the Empire "saved" but it has pretty much destroyed what was left of it in the process, with Skyrim being perhaps the last province in it.

Now, going back to the Civil War in Skyrim, I ask supporters of both sides something I recently thought of: If Tiber Septim made another appearance in the game through his avatar and favored a particular side or neither side, what then would you have thought?

If he supported the Imperial Legion, what would you Stormcloak supporters say?

If he supported the Stormcloaks, what would you Empire supporters say?

And if he supported neither side, what then would you all think?

Personally, being one of my favorite characters in TES lore (the others being in earlier eras than him), if he favored the Imperial Legion I probably would have joined them over becoming a Stormcloak supporter but with his absence and my hatred to what the Empire has become, I have not done the ending of the Imperial Legion. I do agree that Bethesda will probably overlook the sides in the Civil War for the canon ending and simply say the Dragonborn ended it (as has been mentioned) but lets pretend here for a while. With another war being foreshadowed, it seems Skyrim will be invaded regardless of who wins but who knows when the Thalmor will gain their next army since their invading force 30 years ago was destroyed.

Also, I'd like this discussion to be more about what Tiber Septim would think on the matter.. I'd rather not have it turn into another General Tullius is this or Ulfric is that kind of thread with no mention of Septim. Tullius and Ulfric can be mentioned, but try not to say too much about either in terms of politics,leadership,etc.

I guess in that case I would think, I wish Bethesda had left the choice to the player. I like the ambiguity and the irony that you either have to side against the remnants of Tiber's empire or side with the people who outlawed Talos worship. Having a god show up to tell you what to do would ruin it, unless you got to change his mind. trololol

I'd think Tiber wouldn't care that much. As he said in Morrowind, he's leaving it up to the younger generation. Both the stormcloaks and the Mede Dynasty are different from the Septim Empire. Perhaps he'd like to see for himself which one wins.

Yeah, I suppose so.. I just thought it was interesting that he showed up in Morrowind at all. Skyrim being where he began rising to power starting with his summoning to High Hrothgar, I thought it'd be interesting to see what people would think of him reflecting on the war if he showed up again. Do you remember exactly what he said though? I'm not sure if this thread is actually going to go anywhere.. but I figured what the hell.

I honestly think that Tiber Septim would still support the Empire. Heres why: ok even though the empire outlawed him being worshipped as a divine i believe he would think a united empire would be the best chance at defeating the thalmor. youve gotta remember to the empire only signed the White-Gold Concordot so that they may survive. this would be pretty smart in the eyes of Tiber Septim and i think he would see a united empire being a benefit to each pronvince of tamriel simply because one alone cannot win against the thalmor(excluding hammerfell because they were able to drive the thalmor out because it was weakened from the great war). also skyrim is not the only province in the empire as high rock is also part of it. lets remember too that skyrim is not the only human province and i dont think tiber septim would appreciate the other human provinces like cyrodiil and hammerfell being attacked just because the narrow minded ulfric thought the nords were being dealt the crappy end of the stick and would chose to abandon the other human provinces.

Well if Tiber Septim said that he supported the Empire I would support the Empire. Though I doubt he would support an Empire that is not only not part of his bloodline but pretty weak compared to the Empire of the past. I don't think Tiber Septim would be very pleased that we would be letting elves boss us around. But that's just my opinion.

Whether or not its his dynasty or not he still probably would support a united empire against elven supremacists.

Well he did say that the empire is old and its day are numbered so he meant that the septim dynasty would end, so you can't use the fact that because the empire is not part of his bloodline he wouldn't support it.

On the other hand, it is true the empire banned his worship. However I do remember Alvor said that before Ulfric fret about the white-gold concordat everyone still has their own shrine of Talos.

So the empire may be the one to ban his worship but the stormcloaks are the one that make the ban enforced.
So in my opinion Talos would be netral.

Well i wouldn't say that we never really met the guy, we don't know what he really thinks. That's why i said it was my opinion.

Ok now they really need a DLC where Talos shows up.

It will be like a slap to the face for the Empire, and a pump of the fist to the Stormcloaks.

But then he speeks...

You know, originally i thought that Skyrim would join the Empire again, because of the Second Great War, and maybe some sort of pact. But now... A new idea just came to mind.

If Ulfric really does fight for TALOS (A.K.A Tiber Septim) then if Talos told Ulfric that he needed to re-unite the empire, Ulfric might just join the empire again.


Or maybe...

I would like to see Talos show up to a Thalmor speech rally where they are saying Talos isn't a god. When he shows up he just stares at them for a good five minutes then points to one of them and he explodes.

That would be fantastic.

Tiber Septim (Talos), was a soldier, general, conqueror, then god. He was not a diplomat. He would at the very least, spit in the face of Attrebus Mede II for so easily surrendering to enemy terms. At most, he likely would've had Attrebus Mede II executed for betraying man kind. If it was Tiber Septim in the same position, he would've went all in, balls out against the Thalmor. If the Thalmor had offered Tiber Septim the White-Gold Concordant, he would've pulled a "300" stunt. "THIS...IS...CYRODIIL!" *Sparta kick to chest*.

He also would've had the tactical genius to realize that the only reason the Thalmor would offer such a Treaty again, is because their momentum had played out, and they no longer had the advantage. The Thalmor were just puffing up their chest and bluffing when they offered the White-Gold Concordant. After the surprise of the Thalmor attack had worn off, and they played out their momentum, the Imperial Legions would steam roll their ass in open ground fights. The Thalmor were much more suited to cloak and dagger/espionage crap, than rank and file battles.

Tiberim Septim (or whatever was his name) was also a turncoat, a backstabber and an opportunist.

Clearly, he was very good at what he did and he was able to turn his ambitions into reality... If he lived during the events of Skyrim he would choose which side to support solely on personal gain and opportunities.

If Tiber Septim were even there there would not be a civil war because he would unite them and lead the fight against the Aldmeri Dominion

Have you considered the fact that a new, stronger Skyrim led by Nords(as Talos's original "empire), could actually be a better alternative for reuniting the the old and weak empire? I mean; if Ulfric and the rest of Skyrim would unite the humans instead of the weakling-milk-drinker empire? Wouldnt that be more like Talos's "cup of tea(ale)"

Great topic btw!

I'd postulate that the Dovahkiin is an avatar of the many-headed Talos.

It is an interesting, if a bit old, tidbit of information that have been used on this topic before, but not quite like it is presented now. The simple answer on my part is that if Tiber Septim revealed himself in the form of an avatar(and we were given enough hints in the game to know he was Talos without having to read some published guide by Bethesda) and took a side in the Civil War I would most likely take the same side.

The Dragonborn is a kind of reincarnation of Tiber Septim. So naturally you would expect him to choose the Imperials. Even though, I don't believe that Tiber Septim would like the idea of an Emporer like Titus Mede. He probably wouldnt like how racist and arrogant Ulfric Stormcloak is but then again the Stormcloaks are just trying to preserve their ways. I would say that Tiber Septim would choose the Stormcloaks but would try to keep Ulfric from discriminating other races.

Note what the Greybeards say when they proclaim you Dovahkiin:

Naal Thu'umu, mu ofan nii nu, Dovahkiin, naal suleyk do Kaan, naal suleyk do Shor, ahrk naal suleyk do Atmorasewuth. Lingrah krosis saraan Strundu'ul, voth nid balaan klov praan nau. Meyz nu Ysmir, Dovahsebrom. Dahmaan daar rok.

By our Thu'um, we give it now, Dragonborn, by the power of Kyne, by the power of Shor, and by the power of Atmora-of-old. (In) long sorrow waits (the) Stormcrown, with no worthy head (to) rest on. Become now Ysmir (Now comes Ysmir?), Dragon-of-(the)-north. He remembers this.

I think one possible reading of this is that the name of Stormcrown (which = Talos) has waited a long time for someone worthy of it to appear, and now it's being given to you because you have appeared and been found worthy. "Become now Ysmir" could be translated as "Now comes Ysmir," but either way it could be understood to mean that you are becoming Ysmir, or that Ysmir has come again and you are him; the process of growing into your role as Dragonborn will be a process of Ysmir remembering who he is now, in this incarnation, i.e. you, and you remembering who you truly are and are becoming, i.e. Ysmir i.e. Stormcrown i.e. Talos.

WIth that in mind it's entirely possible that Talos IS in the game, and you ARE him, and so whichever decision you make on the civil war - Stormcloak, Empire, neutral - will be and is what Talos would have done, because it's what Talos is actually doing.

Just my two cents, but I think it's an interesting possibility. The fact that whichever side you choose wins, and that nobody can win or even fight past a stalemate without your assistance, kinda makes it seem like even more of a possibility. Until the god appears and takes a side, nothing can be decided; once he does take a side, victory for his allies is inevitable.

You don't know much about Tiber then. Tiber was an advocate of mannish supremacy over elves. Talos is a mishmash of Tiber, Wulfharth(VERY anti-elf), and Zurin. Tiber was not a nice person. But warlords rarely are. Talos by nature is a reaffirmation that mannish ideals trump elven ones. This is why the Thalmor hate him so much.

That does make sense, considering the circumstances and the fact you follow in his footsteps. Another interesting thing that could have happened is, if he was in the game, he could have reflected more on the path you did choose and stated his opinion on the possible future.

Also, I made a mistake posting this thread right before E3 considering how fast it was buried.. anyone else care to share their thoughts? I'm interested to hear more opinions on the matter.

If he would make a apperance in this game he probably wouldn't support any of them, its not his Empire anymore. But if one side won he would be angry with that side for fighting eachother and should have joined together to fight the real enemy..... the elves. just like in his time his destiny was to defeat the elves wich refers to moslty the high elves. This Dragonborn dlc theory could be about this, your player is the first confirmed dragonborn since Talos and this dlc could focus on that, fighting the dominion in an all out war...hell yeah. Talos isn't in Sovngarde so thats one reason why he could be a divine and also get a blessing at his shrines. Can't wait to see what bethesda has in store for us in the future.

And also Tiber would respect what titus mede for what he did in fighting the dominion and why he signed the white gold concordat, to fight another day...