If the dragonborn never helped any of them, which side do you think would eventually win?

If Ulfric taught the voice to his troops they would be unstoppable.

I don't really think that is realistic though, seeing as he hasn't done it yet.

I think the Imperial Legion would eventually win, for several reasons. They probably have more troops (and I'm assuming the entire Imperial Army isn't in Skyrim, just a few legions) and have better training and equipment. The Stormcloaks have a cause and the landscape to their advantage, but without the Dragonborn, I doubt they could reach victory or a stalemate.

In the NPC war videos on youtube, the stormcloaks are stronger if I remember correctly...

The empires' time is coming I think,despite the size of their armies. The storm cloaks are all ready doing a good job of fighting them off. I think once winter comes in skyrim, that will offer them some advantage as well.

But, Im not sure for the most part.I havnt taken a side yet because Im waiting on dlc announcement(just in case any of it has to do with the civil war).

Imperial Legion

The Thalmor

Made me laugh, just because of its brevity. But of course, I don't believe that. Perhaps Beth has that particular "end" in mind, but thankfully, no one really has to play that way. In fact, it honestly doesn't matter to me WHAT the rest of you do with the "conflict" or the dragon thing.... I'll just play my own game like I always do with TES. I've never yet "been" what Beth supposed I would be, and I'm not about to start now.

Morrowind I did the Main Quest, and I felt it was pretty good. I did a lot of guilds and side quests because they gave good loot and experience.

Oblivion, what can I say that I havent already? The Main Quest just doesnt do it for me. It's just meh. I do everything but the main quest, which I have never progressed beyond taking Martin to Cloud Ruler Temple. It's guilds, side quests, random exploring and dungeoneering.

With Skyrim, I told myself this wouldnt be a repeat of Oblivion. I concentrated on the Main Quest, with only a minor divert to Embershard Mine on my way to Riverwood, all the way through doing the quest to get the Horn. My current status? Level 31 and I still havent finished Diplomatic Immunity.

Oh, I hear you.... I DID do the MQ complete on one toon in each game though. And in Skyrim, I have also done the TG (much as I dislike it). I haven't got to the point of completing the DB though, and I'm not sure I can. I don't do werewolves, so no, haven't gone that far in the Companions. I ran a couple of toons partway into the civwar questline - to the point of being required to trash Whiterun.... and nope, not ever going the rest of the way there.

It's okay. I don't care if I ever do all those things Beth thought were so great and wonderful. They aren't great and wonderful for me, so I'm not doing them. But there's so much else to do I won't ever miss them. And being on the pc version, once I need some fresh content - well, there will be LOTS of that. All of which is why TES is my all time absolute favorite game franchise.

I don't think he knows it well enough to teach to others. And even if he did it would take decades to perfect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RN5BGueTNUc

Without the Dragonborn, the Legion successfully captured Ulfric Stormcloak and were about to execute him. I'm giving this to the Legion.

You mean if it wasn't for Aludin presence. Both the dragonborn and Ulfric would've gotten their heads chopped off.

Oh no, I'm not saying they're going to win. I'm saying if there was no intervention from some big source that will likely be coming in the future, the Thalmor would win should the dragonborn not exist. They'd mire that civil war up so much, that Cyrodiil would have way too much trouble gaining the resources they need from skyrim. Ulfric would never be in a decent position to fully conquer the nation. Both sides are being manipulated. Eventually the war will have gone on long enough that the thalmor will have enough influence in the ranks of the elder council and the emperor to pretty much guarantee victory against the imperials. At which time they mass coordinate a slaughter of the legions in cyrodiil, and allow Ulfric to win the war in skyrim. Before any forces can be marshalled in skyrim though, they sweep in and wipe it out too. Hammerfall and High Rock ally and attempt a last stand, but are ultimately doomed to fail.

This of course presupposes that alduin won't have eaten everyone in that doomed future.

i agree with this

No, the Legion's success the first time 'round had nothing to do with a Dragonborn (or lack thereof) in its ranks.

The legion's success was not due to war tactics but an ambush that cannot work twice.

Had Alduin and thr Dragonborn both not have happened though, there wouldn't have needed to be a second time in the first place.

The Thalmor are masters of magic and they live several times longer than Imperials and Nords, they're not just a few moves ahead, they've already won the game. Whichever side won would be swallowed whole.

I suppose that's why the empire was completely destroyed after the great war then?

They screwed up. Got too overconfidant and it cost them big. They're not out of it, but they're in severe danger if either stormcloaks or imperials win the war and start an actual offensive.

Well of course not, that ended in a peace treaty!

But yeah, they did stretch themselves too thin. They want everything for themselves so if one province they've control of rebels, they're likely to put their energy into either keeping their pimp hand strong in that region, or on obliterating the populace. Either way, they're likely to be countered by some other resistance elsewhere that they'll be under-manned for.

You know, I do very much appreciate your reasoned, logical PoV on this. Thanks....

If their is one thing greater than the Thalmor's expert grasp at deception and strategy, it is their pride and inflated egos.

The Empire was lucky that they thought the IC was unguarded and attacked it instead rather than sticking with invading Hammerfell.