systemic AI or node based AI?

Post » Fri May 27, 2011 6:40 am

*Disclaimer: i am no programmer and i am mostly assuming from experience to start this discussion.*

in most corridor shooters sophisticated AI is not really sophisticated but is working on nodes that were planted on the map by the developers.
if RAGE was created using nodes than i would guess that a "climb ddown" node was planted in a couple places along every rail in the water system of the demo we've seen, and a "wall jump here" node was placed on walls as well. the AI would use these nodes do special acts when it gets close to them or use them under other conditions. nodes are popular near ladders or around corners as "cover nodes" so the AI will know where to take cover. problem with this is that in areas where the AI is not planned to go there the AI will not act "cleverly" since no nodes for it are planted by the devs.
in gears of war or "fear" or Mass effect 2 the use of cover nodes is how the game works. in ME2 it's so appaent that cover is used with cover nodes since in any area where there is no combat the player can't use the cover button or even draw his weapons. in a civilian location u cant draw your gun since there are no cover nodes or sophisticated path finding meshes are located so AIs wont be able to fight there.

Systemic AI is an AI that recognized the terrain and adjusts by itself. Mass effect 1 and GTAIV are examples of this. in both these games there are no cover nodes yet the AI is great at recognizing cover and using it (probably using collision to detect where cover can be taken) and in GTAIV u can see the AI know where it can climb and go and there are no "climb here" or "take cover here" nodes anywhere. it's systemic. with systemic AI systemic the AI can handle itself anywhere albeit be perhaps less responsive or affective with how it uses it's environment. If u look at Red faction: guerrilla u can tell the cover system there works without cover nodes since every building can be destroyed yet the AI do take cover. also in mass effect 1 u could draw your gun anywhere and attack to anything as cover since it's system was systemic.

My Question is - Which type of AI do u think Rage will have?
the AIs have remarkable animations and they do cool things like climb down rails and jump using walls or taking cover and firing behind it, but are these action controlled by nodes or does the AI recognized the environment like in GTAIV?
i am opening this debate because if the AI uses nodes and is scripted like it is in ME2 than will we encounter ME2 AI syndromes where u can't even draw your gun anywhere where the devs didnt place nodes or navigation meshes for the AI or that AI will act brain dead in any area where it wasnt meant to fight? will gun using AI even be able to grab cover in areas that are not tailored for them? if so this means that certain types of AIs will not inhabit certain areas that were not made for them or that AIs will not show up in random and these kind of game-y phenomenons are phenomenons that kinda ruin the immersion IMO.
also if the AI in rage is node-based than this means that the combat levels are more likely to be relatively narrow and linear than open ended (like in far cry 2) and it also means the combat will only take place in selected areas (like boarderlands) since the developers can't go and place bazzillion nodes everywhere. they select particular areas where combat will take place and place nodes there.

what do u think? how random and organic will be Rage's AI in your opinion?
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Thema
 
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Post » Thu May 26, 2011 6:24 pm

i see no one cares to contribute to this thread, but honestly i think i raised a very valid concern.

is it because i was not clear on the subject or maybe no one has any clue about the this?
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Danii Brown
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 6:40 am

Indeed the AI is very important. Stalker has AI that does it's thing whether you are around or not. I have spent a few hours just following creatures around and they prey on each other. The first time you see a dog drag a corpse out of your sight so he can chow down in peace you do WTF!

The human AI is unparalleled. High level NPCs will hunt your ass in a tactical box formation with grenades used to flush you into other NPC's fire zones. Impressive stuff. Run and snipe is about the only useful response. I have not seen AI at this level anywhere else and although some of the Stalker guys did Metro 2033 it's not nearly as good.

You give me Stalker with better graphics and less bugs and I'm a happy camper. Do it John. Leave the spaceships for a while, your ass is getting kicked.

I have every useful id game. (no Final Doom etc) I have over 1000 doom and doom2 wads. Ever fight 20 Cybers?
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A Lo RIkIton'ton
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 10:13 am

Indeed the AI is very important. Stalker has AI that does it's thing whether you are around or not. I have spent a few hours just following creatures around and they prey on each other. The first time you see a dog drag a corpse out of your sight so he can chow down in peace you do WTF!

The human AI is unparalleled. High level NPCs will hunt your ass in a tactical box formation with grenades used to flush you into other NPC's fire zones. Impressive stuff. Run and snipe is about the only useful response. I have not seen AI at this level anywhere else and although some of the Stalker guys did Metro 2033 it's not nearly as good.

You give me Stalker with better graphics and less bugs and I'm a happy camper. Do it John. Leave the spaceships for a while, your ass is getting kicked.

I have every useful id game. (no Final Doom etc) I have over 1000 doom and doom2 wads. Ever fight 20 Cybers?


i hate to agree that not a lot of ppl appreciate how good STALKER's AI is. definately unappreciated.
it can survive and thrive anywhere and i do not think that cover nodes exist everywhere in the world yet the AI knows where to hide. also STALKER is the only game where the AI has managed to sneak up on me. it's been a few good times where i was looking in one direction only to get shot in the back by a crouching AI that followed me and flanked me.

creating an AI for open ended games is much harder and u can see utter cr@p of an AI in games like borderlands or good AI in linear games like Gear of war or COD. while rage looks like an open ended game, the missions themselves might just be linear and scripted like in the linear game genre. frankly im worried. RAGE is no Farcry2 (which is great and AI was fun, in spite of it's inability to recognize cover or crouch but had wonderful detection systems) so im holding judgment..
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