The computer is a cheating bastard, why master difficulty is

Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:26 am

I've been playing the game on master difficulty for a while now, because I enjoy a challenge, and I think it's much easier to judge the balance of a game when you pit various play styles against the toughest possible scenario, as opposed to an easy one. (For example, lots of people maintain that shields are useless and melee is easy because they play on easy difficulties, where your armor easily does all the work, or that destruction magic is overpowered, because on easy difficulties it burns through any number of foes with ease)

The issue I see with Master difficulty is that the way the difficulty is raised in the game is in the absolute lamest, most unimaginative, and cheesy way possible. All the game does is simply increase the damage and hitpoints of enemies, in many cases to an absurd degree.

This leads to two things happening:

1. Enemies can shrug off blows like they are nothing, you can smack them with a power attack from a great hammer and they just don't really care all that much, it takes a couple millimeters off their life bar, but they keep right on rolling. That completely screws up the game however, because it destroys the way a lot of mechanics work. For example, shield bashing someone to open them for a flurry of attacks - useful if the enemies is gravely wounded as a result, pretty much pointless if they still have a mountain of HP left, but it still costs a good chunk of your stamina. Using Fus Ro Dah on an enemy is even significantly cheapened by their inflated hitpoints, because while lying on the floor helpless for a few seconds might be a big deal in regular difficulty, on master difficulty the enemies will simply get back up and keep fighting, since they can take a couple dozen wacks from a decent weapon.

2. Enemies do insane ammounts of damage. This is also gamebreaking in a lot of ways. For example, the first "miniboss" you will encounter in Skyrim on a usual play-through is the big spider in bleak falls barrow. It has a poison attack. Poison attacks ignore armor and blocking. On regular difficulty this spider is a pretty mean foe, no doubt, but on master difficulty it's one bite and you're dead. The only way to survive its poison attack is to instantly pause the game and throw half a dozen health potions in your mouth. The same is true for dragon breath, enemy mages, and high end enemy fighters as well. They end up doing so much damage that your defenses become meaningless.


Perhaps we can get the moders on creating a "Genuine Challenge Mode" and not just an "Inflated Enemy Numbes Mode".

You have got to be kidding. The game is too easy on easier levels but too hard on the hardest level?? If enemies do too much damage at Master, perhaps you should block and dodge more. If it enemy's hit points don't move fast enough for you, perhaps you need to poison your weapon, smith the weapon, or find an enchanted one. If all else fails, go down to expert and call it a day.

I used to think the game was too easy, until I took an arrow to the knee.
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Naomi Lastname
 
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Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:25 pm

... Maybe they're talking about the infamous Two Worlds 1.

Dude, don't be hatin' on TW... that game puts any other RPG to SHAME. I mean... collecting fruity little cards to improve magic? GENIUS!
-Loth
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Kari Depp
 
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Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:02 am

People who say it's unrealistic to expect a smarter AI on harder difficulties are correct, after all, Bethesda is not going to run normal mode on deliberately worse AI than they can produce.

However, there are a variety of things they could have done to make master difficulty actually hard, and not just hard for people who like face to face combat with enemies.

This stuff doesn't take a much better AI, and there are in fact plenty of games that have solutions to these kinds of problems:

For example, all enemies should have a ranged attack that does full damage that they use when they can't path to you for longer than 5 seconds. That's not necessarily realistic, but neither is a bear getting confused and running away because you climbed onto a small rock. It would be a simple way to avoid one of the really huge AI exploits that makes beating powerful enemies trivial if you play in certain ways.

Sneak detection should be higher on higher level enemies, so that sneak doesn't start out worthless, but doesn't just make you into an invisible angle of death when you reach the higher levels of it. That's pretty much a no brainer also, no reason why this shouldn't be affected by the difficulty settings in the game.

Loot tables already exist in the game, there is no reason why they can't be modified according to difficulty settings. Same is true of vendor prices, if they can be modified according to a skill setting it's not hard to modify them according to a difficulty setting.

In fact, anything that is in any way affected by any skill or perk can be modified without a big problem.


That's the kind of things they should have focused on with master difficulty, instead of making bandits that do 200 damage a swing with an iron sword. It doesn't make you feel like you're genuinely being challenged, it just makes you feel like the computer is cheating and you have to cheat right back.




Also for all you half wits who still somehow read into this topic "Hard difficulty is too hard" - That is not what the thread says, you fail at reading comprehension. What the thread says is this: Master difficulty takes a very one sided approach to creating difficulty that makes some play styles impossible while others can still just breeze through. It fails as a difficulty setting because all it does is skew the game towards stealth, minion spam, ubergear and cheesy tactics, while not at all providing a reasonable increase in challenge to people who want to play in other ways.
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Jade Barnes-Mackey
 
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Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:42 pm

So you checked an NPCs skill level in heavy armor and then switched difficulty and checked it again and it was a different result? I'll have to see that myself, because it doesn't sound factual (No offense).

I think the main issue here is scope/scale in any case. I seriously need people to point me to these awesome games that they seem to be drawing a parallel from that have awesome combat and awesome AI and the scale of Skyrim. Maybe they're talking about the infamous Two Worlds 1.


That is exactly what I did, yes.

As for scale, it only means so much if there's not a happy medium between quality and quantity. Skyrim is a little light on the quality side in a number of areas. Impressive nonetheless though.
But I don't think combat is a scope/scale issue as much as most other things, it seems like a very separate issue considering they've been working on the same combat style in TES through 3 games now, they're not creating new combat systems from scratch every game.
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Chenae Butler
 
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Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:02 pm

Agree with the OP that Master should affect more than damage output and damage taken. Things like stealth, prices, etc should be affected.

In any case Master is unrealistic due to extreme damage other deal compared with your character. Until you reach a point in the game, then things shift rapidly.

The difficulty slider is actually an improvement over Oblivion. What it actually does in Skyrim is amplify NPC damage output, and reduce PC damage output. ...

How is that an "improvement"? That is exactly what the difficulty slider does in Oblivion. At max difficulty your character does one sixth damage and enemies do six times damage to your character.


...Warriors are bloody easy mode, you just hit stuff on the head till it stops moving. Armor allows you to soak up oodles of damage and its easy to level and gear is plentiful. ....

In my experience this is just not true. Not until higher levels. Because at master level even with good heavy armor equipment and skills higher level enemies or named bosses can one-shot kill the player character. That is a fact based on experience with a Heavy Armor Two-Handed warrior with nearly all point going into health.

In order for this to work you need to avoid all high level enemy attacks. Even at level 25 or 30 a bandit chief or fire mage can kill your character with one shot or at in under two seconds. So it is possible to move and kite, but if they even get one hit in, your only option is to reload. It might be doable, but there is no way it is "bloody easy" to be a warrior - unless you get to the upper thirties or so.
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Justin Bywater
 
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Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:23 pm

any case. I seriously need people to point me to these awesome games that they seem to be drawing a parallel from that have awesome combat and awesome AI and the scale of Skyrim. Maybe they're talking about the infamous Two Worlds 1.

Idk about the others, but I always compaire RPGs to FF XII... yes, very different from Skyrim indeed, I'll admit, but most things it has are applicable to the more actiony, non-linear Skyrim... plus, it makes it pale in comparison in everything except character making (since it doesn't matter what you do, in FF XII you'll always end up as a jack of all trades, master of ALL, with whatever happens to be the strongest melee weapon in your inventory...) It has the good old difficulty settings: one size fits all, you can always level more or go forward to get max rewards/level ratio. Only difficulty setting is choosing if oppening the skill menu stops time or not... Plus, unlike Skyrim, enemies have a huge arsenal in their disposal from which they pick the skills they have, unlike skyrim where all 95% of the enemies have exactly the same attack patterns as everyone else... And that means that bosses can actually take huge loads of time to bring down but are actually fun, because each of them has a lot of things they can do to you, and different that the previous or the next boss..they can also cycle through different patterns during the same battle, or summon other bosses, or whatever... unlike Skyrim where they just take more hits and pots to kill, except maybe 2-3 bosses that as an extra can also disarm you... yay, biiig difference...
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Stat Wrecker
 
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Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:19 pm



That is exactly what I did, yes.

As for scale, it only means so much if there's not a happy medium between quality and quantity. Skyrim is a little light on the quality side in a number of areas. Impressive nonetheless though.
But I don't think combat is a scope/scale issue as much as most other things, it seems like a very separate issue considering they've been working on the same combat style in TES through 3 games now, they're not creating new combat systems from scratch every game.

When I speak of scope and scale I'm also speaking about specialization. A game that solely focuses on one aspect of things, say... being Batman, is going to be a lot better at being Batman than a game that has it as an addition to the whole pie. But the game that focuses on being Batman probably won't be any good at being a spell caster or a Dragonborn and what have you.

I guess you could say that Skyrim focuses on a lot of things therefore in some areas it is spread thin, but that's the nature of the game. Regardless, as a whole pie, it's the best pie you'll ever eat (Or have six with ...).
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Aman Bhattal
 
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Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:23 pm

Here's one that got me, I was hidden, sniping forswarn with my Legendary Supple Ancient Nord Bow... I'd let the arrow fly and WTF! The enemy instantly and quickly moves out of the way and I'm still hidden:)

HAHA!
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XPidgex Jefferson
 
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Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:51 pm

Here's one that got me, I was hidden, sniping forswarn with my Legendary Supple Ancient Nord Bow... I'd let the arrow fly and WTF! The enemy instantly and quickly moves out of the way and I'm still hidden:)

HAHA!
The shot detection routine is a little wonky; sometimes it will detect the shots the instant they're fired, thus instantly move as the computer has light-speed 'reflexes', and other times it will completely ignore them and get blasted in the back of the head.
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Lou
 
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Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:48 pm

A couple of similar topics have been merged.

Please use this one: http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1328358-master-difficulty-at-high-level-merged-similar-topics/
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Queen of Spades
 
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