No, it isn't like the navmesh bug. The navmesh bug had two component parts.

One part was in the CK, where the navmesh editor was generating bad data. That bug was corrected in CK 1.5.24, and the corresponding fix for the game side was also shipped with 1.5.24. It was only discovered afterward that navmeshes from .esp files were inducing crashes, in what was likely a different area of the code that was overlooked. THAT part of things wasn't fixed until Skyrim 1.6.89.

This issue with the memory limit has no impact on your ability to edit the level, and reporting it as though it does wastes everyone's time worrying about it in the CK. If Bethesda pays attention to this thread, accuracy of reporting is essential. Reporting bugs that only come up on the game side of things doesn't help the CK team one bit.

There is every reason to believe that there are two entirely different groups of people working on this stuff and to have one chase something that will never be reproduced isn't helpful.

Since the vanilla game doesn't have issues with large interiors, it's reasonable to conclude that it handles this better with .esm files. The entire game setup may never have been intended to run things from .esp files at all, which would explain why there have been so many .esp related issues corrected in this engine over the last 12 years.

So far this seems correct, yes. All of the dialogue I've added local to mods plays without issue. Provided the silent voice + lip file is packed as a FUZ file.

I actually might have voice acting for it. Does that function properly?

Yes, I just have a habit of assuming silent voice is all

The only issue that I see with this kind of thinking is that there is a tendency for the 'two teams' to rather point fingers at each other than work together to fix issues. There is evidence of it right here, in this thread. I'm for not giving Bethesda the chance to point fingers anywhere but back at Bethesda. So from my point of view, WHERE the issue lies (game side or CK side) is not imporant to we customers, the fact that 'there is an issue, it looks like this, now Beth go and fix it' THAT is what is important. Where in Beth's source code the issues raised with the navmesh bug reside, for instance, is not really possible for we customers to fix, or even identify. I think that the only role of any importance we, the customers, can play is to say: 'Here is something that is now different, in a bad way. If you do this, this happens.' or, 'If you make this this is the result.' THAT is the best thing that we can do for Beth.

It's been an issue since the CK came out. Chances are, they ain't gonna fix it. It doesn't affect the game, only mods created in the CK, which are un-supported by Beth.

[Edit] In saying that, they did fix the navmesh bug,...but that was a real ballbuster. No workround in an esp. The CTD from interior to exterior can be worked around in an esp, so again, probably no fix.

I'm sorry guys, what? It's obviously a huge bug that needs reporting, or only what you say is a valid bug? Like it or not it's a huge ck bug, I'm editing in the ck and not in the game, also, since we aren't developers who entitled us to say it's a game or ck bug?

Keep it simple, it happens in ck, it ruins your mod, it's a bug, simple, report it so they fix it.

Bethesda are the ones that decide if it's a ck, game or both bug, we aren't suppose to decide that, we are here reporting.

And why do you think Bethesda won't fix it? If we keep saying for them to not fix it they won't bother and modders will keep bumping into it, that's another reason to report it, IT'S A HUGE BUG, PLEASE FIX IT, THANKS.

And using that flawed logic, many bugs that are in the first page and don't happen ingame aren't bugs at all then.

You're missing the point. The interior to exterior bug is not a CK issue, it's a game engine issue. The game engine works fine the way Beth produce their content, so there's probably no chance that they'll rewrite the game engine for mods. Especially since there are other options available.
It crashes the game, it doesn't crash the CK. Smaller interiors don't crash the game, only big interiors. From that information alone, it doesn't take a genius to work out what's at fault.

If the vanilla game was crashing because of it, then you could expect a fix. I think Bethasdas' stance is, if the vanilla game runs fine, it doesn't warrant a fix.

I'm sorry, but since you aren't a Bethesda developer, why should I believe that it's a game and not ck bug?

Also, in the first post you can for example read "Huge statics won't show....", they do show, so according to this logic, it's a game bug and not a ck bug. We don't know how the game works, we don't know if it's ck, game or both, all he can reproduce is the bug and ask for a fix.

And if they only fix things that crash in vanilla, why release ck? Why release SteamWorkshop? Why fix navmesh bug and other bugs?

And if that's the problem, I can create a new thread that is called CK/Game bugs, man sometimes some of you seem to like the bugs, we have to complain guys, we have to be polite but complain, if we don't complain they won't see it and they won't fix it.

Did you know that they said that they never fixed the Navmesh bug in the first place because they didn't see people talking about it? We have to make noise so they listen.

That's simple. Because the bug you're making an issue out of only crashes the game. The CK runs perfectly fine and has no ill effects because of it.

You keep trying to compare it to the navmesh bug but that too has been explained to you already. The navmesh bug affected BOTH applications. Fixing the CK so that it produced valid navmeshes uncovered the bug on the game side that was later identified and fixed.

There is no such thing to find and fix in the CK for this memory issue. The CK is producing valid dungeon cells. The game simply can't handle overly large ones.

Here's the proof of what I'm saying:

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1354218-an-open-letter-to-bethesda-regarding-ck/


Posted in 28 of February!

Yet again, you aren't a Bethesda developer, so I won't believe in you, there's no proof at all that it doesn't affect both other than your words. It can affect in ways that we don't understand, flag something, change records, change code, whatever.

And like I said, if that's a big issue I will create a new thread that includes your precious GAME in the title.

And the game can handle large interior cells, the vanilla ones are way bigger than mine.

Not taking sides here, but you are aware, are you not that the 'engine' used in Skyrim is a glorified database, yes? To that end, the CK is just a query generator. A little over-simplified, but bear with me... I once worked on a system where the query generator didn't do proper sanity-checking, so would allow trailing spaces in a query. Unfortunately, the database in behind tended to treat those spaces sort of like a divide-by-zero instruction. Didn't crash the query generator, though, it just happily generated more trailing spaces... 'Must be a database issue, the database keeps crashing...'

Not a matter of taking sides, at least to me, it's a matter of fixing bugs! But for some reason some people seem to not want that!

Should I go into the game section of the forums and post this bug next to the quest and etc ones? That doesn't make any sense!!!!! It's posted here because the ck is the one causing it.

Also, I can travel from my cell to every vanilla space, interior or exterior, big and small, same for traveling between vanilla spaces, only thing that crashes the game is from my interior cell to my worldspace, even going back works. It's obviously a bug that needs reporting!

Bug list updated. The following bugs have been fixed:

Medium

• Modifying a reference in an unloaded cell via the cell view window causes an assertion error.

Minor

• Selecting all objects in the cell window and deleting them will not remove all the objects selected. Some will be left behind.

I've also included a new section to the list: Engine Bugs. These are bugs which are game-side, but also affect user-made mods.

Awesome work, keep it up!

Updated solution:

http://www.creationkit.com/Bug_list

I think you misunderstand..WE don't like the bugs, and WE throughout TES history have COMPLAINED a lot. It is only now with Skyrim that Bethesda's work ethic in regards to bugs have changed for the better. In the past, they have used excuses for not fixing things. Oh yes, please don't so foolish as to put all of your faith entirely into Bethesda. You will be disappointed one way or another if you do.

And I hope you aren't extending that to everything he says. His experience has kept me and many others out of a lot of modding/gameplay trouble.

Their work ethic changed because of SteamWorks (having something officially providing broken things doesn't look good) and because of social networks, we can make a lot of noise.

I don't have anything against him, he seems to be very helpful, but not wanting to include this huge bug in a list, be it game/ck or whatever isn't the correct call, because, like I said, where would I put the bug? Next to the "I can't finish the companions quest because the armor is gone" thread?

And if he thinks I am mad with him or whatever I am not, I'm just mad that I keep bumping into Dinosaur problems, we have to, when we can, document this to help others and report to Bethesda.

I'm gonna invite him to be my friend to clear everything up, all I want is bugs fixed or explained, that's all!

I've bumped into the Havock/Worldspace bug size, I've read the thread but I didn't get the maximum size before bugs, right now I have 16x16 (in cells), anyone can tell me whats the size that doesn't causes problems (in cells please)? Thanks.

From what I've read, it seems that when you go over 128 cells (-64 to 65 or 4096x4096 pixel heightmap) in the x dimension (width), the havok bug kicks in. It doesn't seem affect the y dimension (height).

Ah! So I must be safe then with my 512*512 that equals to 16*16, thanks for the answer.

I might have discovered another bug then, but not sure yet.

I'm new to this, but it seems to me that this bug is still not entirely gone:

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1345715-unofficial-creation-kit-bug-list/page__view__findpost__p__20284843

The faces load up better now than they did, but they are still missing make-up, shadows and tattoos at least on my mod (simple addition of a few new NPCs).

I don't need to be a developer to know the difference between a game engine bug and a CK bug. I merely need to use logic and common sense to tell the two apart. But hey, if that's not something you're cool with because Bethesda didn't pronounce it from on high, fine.

My proof is in the fact that the game crashes but the CK does not. How much simpler does it need to get?

You seem to be mistaking an argument of the merits of a bug report as proof that we don't want them fixed. We want them fixed. We just want the focus to be on the right side of things.


Not quite. I tried it the other day while going down the list and still got the same assertion. It may have been partially fixed, but not entirely.