Streamlining isn't "dumbing down," it's removing the excess.

This kind of alarmist thinking is almost cute.

I remember the days of when a game was about as complex as gathering coins and jumping on the heads of things, and the most that there was for player motivation was to get a high score and save the princess.

Saying that games are in danger of becoming too simple is a joke, especially with using Skyrim as an example.

All they've done is trim the fat, so that the focus is more on playing the game and creating your own sense of adventure, instead of spending so much time working out numbers on a spreadsheet and planning out how you're going to level up for each attribute and skill.

Streamlining isn't "dumbing down," it's removing the excess.

I spent more time worrying about leveling up in Morrowind and Oblivion than I did on just simply playing the game and enjoying the adventure of finding new places to explore and completing all the various quests.

But I know that people will always have this mentality that when things are removed, it's somehow "making the game less" instead of actually improving it, because it's a basic association that subtraction means a reduction in the complexity in most people's minds. Has a lot to do with people being unable to see the forest for the trees.

In theory, yes.
In practice, we all know what it REALLY means when they talk about "streamlining". It's not like if the few last years were not FULL of example of horribly dumbed down games that were supposed to be "elegantly streamlined".

Theres a difference between simplification and streamlining. Streamlining is like when you're doing a geometry proof, solving it in 4 steps is inferior to solving it in 3. You get to the same goal more efficiently, that is desired. Simplification on the other hand...

In your opinion, is removing spellcrafting streamlining?

I'm going to create a new set of rules for chess.
Knight has 37% Queen resistance, Bishop will have invisibility spell unless ofcourse a pawn nearby had it's health dropped below 19.432%. Towers will be able to create a new Knight every 15 turns if the player has 2 or more knights at their starting positions.
To name a few.

If you like chess now, wait for the complex version, it's going to blow you away!

Ugh, math. Anyone who likes math is creepy as hell. Math was created by the forces of evil.

Ugh, math. Anyone who likes math is creepy as hell. Math was created by the forces of evil.

While I do agree with some of what the OP and others have said (particularly in regard to the dumbing-down of the mass media in general for a mass audience which = $$$), I think Skyrim is being unfairly labelled as "simplistic". This game is way, WAY better than Oblivion, which was in fact guilty of all that has been said here. There is so much to explore, so much to collect and do, so many twists and turns in even the non-essential dungeons and areas that the series once again has returned to the Morrowind golden age of gritty, open-world vicarious fantasy. The world, the environment, the cities, the dialogue, and the quests have been improved significantly, and are pretty much perfect. And Morrowind is one of my all-time favorite games, alongside diablo 2. Been playing since day 1.

HOWEVER, there are still problems - but they have more to do with SUPERFICIALITY than simplicity, and there definitely is a difference. The problem in gaming today, as well as in our civilization as a whole, is superficiality. To their credit, the developers have outdone themselves in bringing us a fully realized, exciting fantasy world, with minute details such as books or notes that start quests, up to epic dragon encounters and massive dungeons full of mystery to explore (the "Lexicon" dwarven ruin comes to mind). But magic... oh lord... magic in this game has been gutted and condensed a little too far for my liking, and i'm sure most people can agree. It's because more time was spent on the LOOK and FEEL of the world, and the spells that we can cast (which is good, don't get me wrong) than on giving us more OPTIONS for the sake of options.

I'm sure if they were given more time to release the game, then we'd still have many of the fun, flavor spells that have been removed (OPEN LOCK. WTF), in favor of superficial gimmicks like the raise dead animation, which looks cool but absolutely svcks from a gameplay perspective. It takes like 5 seconds for the body to raise up, and then the AI takes over in all its worthless glory. The things that have been "simplified" were NOT changed to appeal to a DUMB audience; rather, they were changed to appeal to a SUPERFICIAL audience that sees pretty, flashy, big, and sixy - and then doesn't bother to delve much deeper. It's all marketing - you can't sell an idea to a mass audience by releasing information about "Open Lock" spells or having Pauldrons, Greaves, and Spears. No... you sell stuff by showing a big, beautifully rendered DRAGON roasting a big, beautiful city, you have to show flashy spell effects, omfg amazing graphics, and every particle of snow or blade of gently swaying grass.

Superficiality is the problem; and the media in general (music, films, television... everything) is scared that if they don't spend 90% of their time making everything GORGEOUS, then no one will watch it, buy it, or play it. And, being a twenty-something underachieving gamer guy, I can tell you EXACTLY when this culture-wide trend began - right when the REALITY TV phenomenon started to take off.

Search your feelings... you know it to be true.

Removing spellcrafting was a bad idea, removing greaves a good one.

Put it the other way around and you are close to the truth

To anyone who wants to be the "My band was awesome before they went mainstream" kind of person: You need to do what they do. Look to the independent, underground, struggling developers who are taking risks and innovating, then abandon and dismiss them when they get popular and successful. Don't try to hang on for nostalgia's sake. You're not some corporate shill with "brand loyalty" or one of those mindless [censored]. You're better than that! You know in your heart that those people don't "get" games, but you do! Their enjoyment isn't real. Their opinions aren't their own—they've been duped into consuming whatever they're given. But not you! You want to belong to a small, exclusive, uncool group. You still can.

So don't try to save games or explain what's wrong with the industry—that's just it, man, once it's an "industry," it can't be saved! That's why you need to game on the fringe. You'll be playing the games you want and preserving your sense of superiority. And if you keep to the fringe, the rest of us won't have to hear your condescending prattle about how your personal preferences in the utterly subjective field of entertainment make you a smarter person. It's win-win.

To anyone who wants to be the "My band was awesome before they went mainstream" kind of person: You need to do what they do. Look to the independent, underground, struggling developers who are taking risks and innovating, then abandon and dismiss them when they get popular and successful. Don't try to hang on for nostalgia's sake. You're not some corporate shill with "brand loyalty" or one of those mindless [censored]. You're better than that! You know in your heart that those people don't "get" games, but you do! Their enjoyment isn't real. Their opinions aren't their own—they've been duped into consuming whatever they're given. But not you! You want to belong to a small, exclusive, uncool group. You still can.

So don't try to save games or explain what's wrong with the industry—that's just it, man, once it's an "industry," it can't be saved! That's why you need to game on the fringe. You'll be playing the games you want and preserving your sense of superiority. And if you keep to the fringe, the rest of us won't have to hear your condescending prattle about how your personal preferences in the utterly subjective field of entertainment make you a smarter person. It's win-win.

But it's pitty for PC games that allow for more keys to be used in the game, as well as 3rd-party mods

That's what you think, and you're perfectly entitled to seeing things how you want to, regardless.

Like I said, the word "streamlining" and its variants tends to automatically mean "less" or like others suggest, "dumbing down" to most people, without a second thought.

I can still see the forest for the trees, and I have no issue. I find that I'm actually spending more time playing the game instead of feeling the urge to min/max my character.

I disagree there. If it weren't for the fact the spells don't scale at the very top tier, I wouldn't miss spellcrafting a bit. The only reason it was so necessary in MW/OB is because every single spell in the game was always inferior to ones the player could make.

The fact that there are so many simple and easy games out there is what made me love a game like morrowind... oblivion made things a little more mainstream, but skyrim has taken it even further.

I fear for TES VI: Fable 4 being released...

I'm going to create a new set of rules for chess.
Knight has 37% Queen resistance, Bishop will have invisibility spell unless ofcourse a pawn nearby had it's health dropped below 19.432%. Towers will be able to create a new Knight every 15 turns if the player has 2 or more knights at their starting positions.
To name a few.

If you like chess now, wait for the complex version, it's going to blow you away!

To anyone who wants to be the "My band was awesome before they went mainstream" kind of person: You need to do what they do. Look to the independent, underground, struggling developers who are taking risks and innovating, then abandon and dismiss them when they get popular and successful. Don't try to hang on for nostalgia's sake. You're not some corporate shill with "brand loyalty" or one of those mindless [censored]. You're better than that! You know in your heart that those people don't "get" games, but you do! Their enjoyment isn't real. Their opinions aren't their own—they've been duped into consuming whatever they're given. But not you! You want to belong to a small, exclusive, uncool group. You still can.

So don't try to save games or explain what's wrong with the industry—that's just it, man, once it's an "industry," it can't be saved! That's why you need to game on the fringe. You'll be playing the games you want and preserving your sense of superiority. And if you keep to the fringe, the rest of us won't have to hear your condescending prattle about how your personal preferences in the utterly subjective field of entertainment make you a smarter person. It's win-win.

I'm going to create a new set of rules for chess.
Knight has 37% Queen resistance, Bishop will have invisibility spell unless ofcourse a pawn nearby had it's health dropped below 19.432%. Towers will be able to create a new Knight every 15 turns if the player has 2 or more knights at their starting positions.
To name a few.

If you like chess now, wait for the complex version, it's going to blow you away!

Streamlining isn't "dumbing down," it's removing the excess.