Even as a low level character, what does Nocturnal do to help you with Mercer?

Nothing that's what!
Also some players want to play characters that are more than just one of the three cliché class archetypes.

I know what Nocturnal gave us.... she gave us Karliah to toggle along and be pretty much useless during battle. It's thanks to her thathttp://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g322/Raidensama/Skyrim/TESV2012-02-1618-40-40-04.jpgIt was Nocturnal this and Nocturnal that. http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g322/Raidensama/Skyrim/TESV2012-02-1618-49-05-11.jpg

I finished the Main Quest, Companions, and Winterhold. The ones my "character" could be interested in....

As to The Thieves Guild, it is the lesser of two evils with the DB. My character wouldn't rally want to be a their, but has the skills. And I've only killed hired mercenaries so far. I'm not happy - like a lot of folks are - that there aren't more options. I'd love to go on a rampage cleaning up Markarth and Riften..... I'd like to be able to "capture" criminals and put them in jail for bounty..... Trudging across the land with a string of beaten crooks behind you.... I love it.

So far, I have been a bit intrigued. I also wanted to train the Master Arhery, so I had to get in. Cost me 20000 coin! That is thievery for sure!

It would have been really tough to beat the TG quest in Oblivion. Honestly, I thought it was more epic then the Oblivion main quest... Having to steal seemingly random items and artifacts, which come together in the end in a master plan for infiltrating the palace via centuries forgotten tunnels and stealing an elder scroll itself!

I have been very impressed by the writing and worldbuilding of the TG so far. Granted, I am only two quests into it, but it already tangibly superior to Oblivion.

But I see what you mean about some of the writing. This idiot Brynjolf is gushing over me like I'm some mix of Altair and James Bond, but I've failed both taskes he's set me so far! The only thing I've done is bludgeoned some common highwaymen to death in the ratway!!!

By the time I sold my soul to Nocturnal I'd already sold my soul to several other daedric princes, so I wasn't too worried about it

LOL! When I heard Karliah's line in the first link I was like "Yeah, this is a business deal, you don't worship her at all and didn't force us into this Nightingale [censored] either "

My biggest irritation with the TG quests are the Extra Jobs that you can get from Vex and Delvin:

• You're never told how many jobs you've completed in each of the four main cities, even though the game obviously does keep track of those counts.
  
• When you take an extra job, you get it assigned in a random city, so it takes forever to get your extra jobs done in one city at a time (by saving and reloading till you get the city you want).

I'm currently working on a mod to fix both of these problems, but obviously that won't help console players.

That's my biggest problem with it. I can understand it's in tatters and fallen (much like the DB when you get there), but after you become the leader ... nothing changes. You get to add some venders to the hideout, but the whole guild is still just a bunch of Thugs and Bullies and it is still basically run by Black-(whats-her-name) and your 'underlings' still get mad at you, their leader for not taking more jobs, and you still have lost your enternal soul to haunt some dang cave.

I did the Thieves Guild once, just so I could say I did it all, but I have no desire to ever do it again. It just made no sense and in the end you have done nothing but made the Skyrim Bullies a bit better known.

After being made leader I wanted the option to actually change them, to make them better and more respected like they were in Oblivion. I wanted to get rid of the corruption and bad influence of Black-(whats-her-name). I wanted to hand out jobs and collect my 'cut' from my underlings work, not work for them.

Now that I think about it I don't think any of the factions are not without major issues. The best by far is the DB and I would never play them unless my character is evil. I've played them just once with an evil Dunmer assassin.

So I got:

Don't you have to cast just one, to get inside the gate?

Have to agree with you on this. Great post. But the TG has quite a few perks that make me hate it, while I'm not that annoyed with the others. Some of those you already said, here's my list though:

1. The fact that you have to work for Maven Black-Briar
2. That you have to sell your soul and gain basically nothing in return, and no option to refuse the deal and continue with the questline
3. Most of the members are just bullies. I really hated how I had to shake the shopkeepers in the beginning.
4. As a leader you still get no respect and work for them instead of the other way around. This kinda happens with the Companions too but at least they don't treat you like you are a newbie
5. By making the side quests you basically bring the TG back to it's glory on your own, no Nocturnal, no Nightingales, no nothing. So again why the [censored] do I have to join the Nightingales and let my soul rot in a dungeon?
6. Lastly, there is no way to go against them, so if you want to take all the shouts you have to join them

just my .2

nah you can just persuade her with a little speechcraft or show off a shout


as for the thieves guild, i actually liked the questline. unlike some other factions which were rather dull

the skyrim TG questline is one of the most well realised in my opinion, and its the only one i've done with most of my characters. it has its flaws of course (for me it's the maven thing that stuck in my craw, though we can blame the civil war questline for not being able to remove her, she does set the DB on you after all), but it's the only guild that really has any longivity. the level 100 spells from the mage guild are nice, and the rolling DB contracts, but even on my gamebreakingly powerleveled main character i have yet to collect all the extra rewards from the TG side quests.

i have to admit that it has always been the thieves guild that inspires me the most in an elder scolls game, so i am totally biased. there's a lot of talk here about how the oblivion TG was far superior to the skyrim version, but i can't totally agree. i still remember the morrowind TG the most fondly anyway.

the issue of railroading and the lack of recogniton for finishing the questline is one common to TESV i'm sorry to say, but it is unfair to claim that the TG is the worst of the lot. if i was to make a true comparisson to the previous thives guilds i would have to say "good effort, shame about the dismount."

This. At least you can destroy the DB (and still get the shout if you want it). I thought with what the Lioness says and the condition of the Jarl, that there would be a way to 'Clean Up' Riften. Instead your only option is to just make them bigger bullies.

What I wouldn't give for a line of quests to destroy the guild, expose and condem Black-Blair, and remove the last of the Nightengales. Again it would seem that's what the Lioness is hinting that you can do, but no such options.

I disagree with your comment on the Nightingale armor. It is much, much cooler than the Dragonbone or Dragonscale sets. They are quite goofy. The jet-black leather set, with an awesome cape, is a most worthy prize for my thieving efforts. As for the Thieves Guild's story and plot, I did not find it all too interesting. Although it was nice to finally dismantle Frey and his stupid face.

Yep, I was also expecting something with the Lioness especially since when you enter Riften for the first time she says the TG represent her reason for being there. But no she is fine as your follower even if you work for them!


That is an opinion. A cape like the one on the NIghtingale armor seems really bad to me. And if you like black and dark armours, in the PC at least there are many good retextures. But I still think that the Dragonbone and Dragonscale armor in vanilla are better than the Nightingale set. That's just my opinion though.

I thought the TG was OK, but I'm one of those that felt pretty bad about the shakedown quest, and wasn't really happy with the soul-selling either. I much preferred Oblivion's questline. As a previous poster put it, it was a lot more epic. But also, a lot more challenging. Several of those quests were pretty tense (stealing the countess' ring from the castle, for instance) compared to this where 100 stealth will get you in and out of anywhere with no trouble at all.

That aside, the thing I appreciated about Oblivion's questline was that you didn't have to be evil or thuggish. I liked the fact you only had to fence x amount of goods to get the next quest - it meant that you could restrict your stealing to rich arseholes if you so wanted, rather than robbing some poor Dunmer family living in the (literally) crappy end of Windhelm of an heirloom or editing the books of a nice merchant you're on good terms with.

Ultimately, that Oblivion questline had a good ending (good as in good vs evil, not good vs bad) so, whilst a lawful good-type would probably have issues with it, a chaotic good-type character can be fully justified in seeing it through. The Skyrim questline just sees a thuggish guild grown more powerful.

That said, some of the quests were quite enjoyable, and I didn't think the Nightingale armour svcked although I didn't use it either as my thief already had a nice set he'd enhanced and enchanted to his own liking.

You can choose to do twenty Bedlam missions from Delvin to satisfy all of the Extra Jobs requirements if you want to simulate the "fence x amount of goods" activities in Oblivion. Do 5 of them in each of the four main cities, you keep all your stolen items and get paid for the jobs to boot!

And [censored] THIS! They don't even differentiate between friends and foes! They send me to the black-briar meadery(lol wut?) once. Also they will sent you anywhere, and sometimes in the same house/person person more than once as well. The extra quest in Whiterun involved the Battle-borns as allies, but I stole/planted evidence in their house two times, so why the heck do they help the guild? And what did the poor beggars and Dunmer of Windhelm or a barmaid in the middle of nowhere did?

I would have enjoyed Skyrim's Thieves Guild if they had made the thuggery and other evil elements optional. They should still be in there just not forced upon the player. The game already has one evil guild the Dark Brotherhood and also a few of the daedric quests, so I think having the Thieves Guild as yet another was a bit too much.

Many players want to grow their character like a character in a novel and so behave in a consistent way. The Skyrim Thieves Guild defines your character (in the first two compulsory quests) as a mobster thug. That is a very narrow definition and doesn't allow you much room to fit a character into the Guild. The Oblivion one was more open because you had room to define what sort of thief you were. It could have been anything from a poor lowlife wanting to earn a buck to an aristocratic in search of a bit of excitement and challenge.

I'd love to be able to get all those cool retextures and colors, but, alas, I do not have a good PC. Only my trusty 360. I've just never been into the bulkier and/or flashy armor.

The Nightingale armour isn't flashy?

JMO: It's the THIEVES Guild! Thieves in RL are, except in the very, very rarest of circumstances, not honorable or good. In this respect, TG in Skyrim is much more realistic than in Oblivion. I really enjoyed playing the TG in Oblivion, but I've had fun with it in Skyrim, too, although I haven't completed it yet. It is probably unrealistic though to think you're going to be able to feel good about playing the TG with a good character - better just to resign yourself to the fact that your character is every bit the thug that the other guys are and probably worse.

lol! I know right? I wonder how much bickering in Oblivion the Dovahkin's death is going to trigger once he dies? Who gets what part of his soul? The Nocturnal, Azura, Molag Bal, Sanguine.... But then again, I suppose this might not be much of a contest if your toon sold its @$$ to Sithis to join the DB

Very well put, sums up my own issues nicely. I have the armor sets clothing mannequins, which is where they'll be for eternity (or until I delete the toon). I'm about ready to go back to Oblivion for a while....