the word is that Bethesda have got rid of character classes. so in principle sneaky characters might well use illusion to increase their stealth (muffle and invisibility). but having a sneak charecter use illusion has some downsides. for a start you have to invest points in magika and that means that health and stamina will be lower.

furthermore stealth is already very powerful at higher levels. with a high degree of stealth thieves can wander around pretty much untroubled so unless you want a really sneaky character then simply adding illusion is not going to make a great deal of difference

what do you think ?

I prefer alchemy,you have potions that act like muffle, and invisibility potions, and alchemy falls under the thief stone as well an requires no magicka investment. Much better choice than illusion in my opinion. Alchemy is pretty much 4 schools of magic in one. Without the magicka investment .

I think casting mind manipulation spells from a hidden position is really a sneaky thing to do so you need good illusion with perks to do that. I am not neccesarrily talking about the fury line but using calm if ever caught while making your get away. I grant you though that once sneak gets to a certain point you won't get caught but calm is useful at lower levels when you are starting out.

I used it extensively as a thief in Oblivion, I'll likely use it for the same reasons in Skyrim as well. Illusion is a pretty handy tool for several character types, not just mages.

As a sneak thief you wouldn't think that you'd have much need for health or stamina, but alchemy might not be a bad idea.

Alchemy contains poisons for calm and frenzy as well. And then you can focus on your stamina and health so if the [censored] does hit the fan, you can at least defend yourself without getting smacked down.

True but it is so slow to me. Plus I have a terrible habit of not selling or using up my potions except in dire situations, so I end up carrying way to many of them around. Also you have to go harvest or buy ingredients, go to a station and craft, where as magic you just buy or find once then cast.

You can max out illusion and alchemy. And stealth etc...

illusion is more fluid, but as for the overflow of potions, they can be a huge source of income when alchemy gets better, potions I make sell for 300 - 1000 gold per potion, so you would be overflowing with gold eventually. Plus as stated, you dont have to focus on magicka at all. Making those dragon battles much easier, and those sprinting distances much further. It all depends on how you want to play though, illusion is quicker, and alchemy is much more in depth.

That is true they are a good source of income. The only feasible way I found of getting my money for the 50 fire resists I was for some reason carrying around was to give the store clerk in Whiterun money for training then sell the potions to her. The only indepth thing about Alchemy is the mix and match game to figure out what the four components are for each ingredient so you can make potions with up to four effects. I can't say illusion is any more indepth as really all you can do is excite or calm someone down or make it so they don't see you but it is definately quicker then slaving over a hot alchemy station. By the way how come there is no fire involved when you brew potions?

I've asked the same question before and hesitating between illusion and alteration. So far, I've gotten into a bit of both. So far I've used.. Illusion = muffle, calm (sometimes), Alteration = detect life (very VERY useful). But if you think your sneak skill ls high enough that you're illusion becomes worthless, then you should go for alteration for detecting your enemies. The only perk I'd get from illusion is silent casting (I think it's an illusion perk.... I think, then you could cast detect life and other spells in sneak mode).

Some of the stations have a flame, some dont, i think they all should, but who knows why they did this. Just like some of the enchanting stations dont have th skull or crystal ball o_O

But you can just get the detect life shout, making alteration invalid, and saving you points towards health / stamina

That is a good perk to have but there are a couple in front of it and it is a fairly high level of skill. I think it is a weakness of this design to have linked perks where you have to follow a order to get some of the higher level perks. I think the worse is probably First of Steel in Heavy Armor I have grimaced each time I have had to take it so I could lighten my encumbrances.

unarmed REALLY should be its own tree, just like the smithing tree should go left for armor, and right for weapons, and all a light and heavy variant for each type of armor.

So true. I have ambitions regarding unarmed but we will have to wait and see how good I can become with the CK. Well that is an interesting idea regarding the armor. I don't really like linked perks, I have heard the argument that it is for uniquiness but if all the perks are available with a limit of one per level you still have uniqness.

I'm planning on using illusion (and maybe alteration) with my thief. true, at higher levels it isn't always needed, but in some scenarios you can't help but be detected. Additionally, it adds some nice variety to the play style. I'm thinking about not using shrouded gloves and investing in 1h as well

some interesting comments. lots to think about. thanks very much.

I suppose I should level alchemy but I find that quite time consuming.

I just want light daedric armor, or something of that nature, or heavy glass, because there are way way toooo little smithable light armors.....

it is, but it pays off in the long run.

Hmm well if you take steel away which you get up both trees (yah I know it is a heavy armor with the addition of plate) you get four types you can craft up each tree. I understand how you feel though light armor doesn't really do it for me eithier.

Agree. Silent casting should be in sneak skill or something, even though it's magical skill-related. In general, I just wish most perks in illusion and alteration aren't just.. "cast novice spell with half the magicka".. etc. etc.. These just feel like it should just be integrated when that particular skill increase (you cast a lot of spells, you're better at it, you should use less magicka), making perks from this just sounds like a waste. (that's why sneak/archery has some of the most interesting perks to invest in..)

There is lIron, banded Iron armor, imperial heavy armor, Steel, steel plate which for sOME REASON is on the light side, dwarven, orcish, ebony, daedric, and dragon bone, oh yeah and ancient nord armor. with LA you have hide, studded, imperial light armor, leather, elven, scaled, glass and dragon scale, 4 more options for the HA, if they all had light and heavy variants, there would be more variation, cuz each variant would look different, light daedric and heavy daedric would look completely different.

Alchemy is so good it's almost cheap if you invest the time into it. But I think that's the downside. SInce most people won't put in the time, it will simply be useful tool, but nothing extraordinary. Alchemy archers FTW. C'mon there's gotta be some of you out there.

Anyway I'm torn now after reading these posts. I might just stick with alchemy since I'm so good at it. I can calm people via arrows and go invisible as well. Not to mention do ANYTHING ELSE I FREAKING WANT. Well, sort of. Alchemy is awesome when you get the hang of it. Thing is, it just feels too easy. AHHHHglslghege

I want to do illusion pretty badly. Although, illusion should just be called "Mindf*ck" because honestly that's all it is. Invisibility is the only illusive thing that doesn't involve controlling other people.

You don't necessarily have to invest in Magicka for your thief, just make sure to get the right perks and train Illusion whenever possible. The only spells that require more than 100 Magicka for a decently skilled and perked character are the Master ones, and I get the feeling your character wouldn't need to use them often. Furthermore, spells like Invisibility and Muffle only need to be cast once every few minutes, giving your Magicka plenty of time to recharge.

That is only 2 effects versus the numerous effects available for alchemy. Its his choice, i ust see alchemy as MUCH more useful.