I have managed to grapple with L3DT and oscape, the CK and TesAnnwyn to get Mesogea into Skyrim. I reckon I have hit just about every snag and error all the way through but can now use the basics of:

L3DT
TesAnnwyn
CK (like holding a viper with tweezers)
Oscape
Version control in the CS.

Thanks to a lot of patience from Maegfaer, Arthmoor and others who I have probably driven to drink anyway.

I am happy to start a series of video tutorials going through the very basics of how I got Mesogea as far as it is, however is there any interest and would others like to help. Anyone who has managed to get the region editor working and so forth.

Yes... please do. These will go in the advanced video tutorial lists both in the thread stickied at the top of the forum and on the Creation Kit wiki's video tutorial page. I look forward to seeing what you put together.

A video tutorial would be great - I would leave out L3DT, though. There are a lot of programs out there (GeoControl, WorldMachine, etc) that will do heightmaps - maybe not as well as L3DT, but I think leave this tutorial as a strictly Skyrim thing.

Also, the region editor works pretty well. There is an absurd bug where sometimes it won't delete objects generated in a region (and hand-deleting a huge region is maddening), and the angle variation setting doesn't work, but as far as I can tell there's really nothing different about it vs the Oblivion or Fallout editor.

Yes, this community needs more tutorials.

Be sure to do a version where you only use the CK to do what can be done with it...not everyone wants to install 20 or so tools on their system.

Ok I can leave out L3dt but seeing as some people have been wrestling with the CK and getting nowhere and L3dt is free for 3 months, or only ￡20 to buy its a pretty good program so might be worth tacking onto the start, but lowest priority. I need to start working with the region editor soon, to get an idea of how it works and hopefully avoid that irritating bug you mention.

The difficulty with keeping it CK based is it wont work. You need wyre bash or similar to get version control to work, oscape to do the distant land (ck is awful for this and I gave up early on owing to the size of the world.)

I would say start with what CAN be achieved with just the CK. Then continue from there. It wouldn't hurt to see how all relevant third-party tools are used. Irrelevant ones would be those you can get away without using.

I know you guys have been pooling your knowledge for several threads now trying to sort out how to make everything work. And as one who fully intends to get involved with world extansion (at the very least) as soon as BGS fixes the navmesh issue and the other areas they need to resolve, you and everyone else involved in that process have my deepest thanks for your dedication, and for the solutions to some of the technical issues facing those who wish to build larger worlds.

Again, I look forward to seeing the result of your efforts.

Give me a bit of time to work out why the save game issue is still happening and work around it then I will give it a start.

By all means, take whatever time you need. Neither Skyrim or its community is going anywhere.

Unfortunately, there's actually very little that can be done in the CK in terms of macro-worldbuilding. It is truly impossible to create working heightmaps, to import heightmaps, to create landscape LOD meshes, normal maps, or color maps, and object LOD in the CK alone. Without using 3rd party programs, the only sort of world building you can do is in the Skyrim worldspace.

I think a tutorial covering things that can be done in the CK (regions, water, weather maybe) would be a great thing to do separate from the actual process of getting a new world into the game.
I just meant that since there are other programs out there that accomplish the same thing as L3DT, maybe have a separate L3DT tutorial independent of this. I don't think there's anyone who's actually gotten the Skyrim heightmap editor to work, so using a program like L3DT or GeoControl is almost certainly necessary.

This is an excellent idea and a very worthy (and needed) thing Kar... I would do it and cover the topics you listed here... ignore those who say to 'leave this out', 'add this in', 'do it all in the CK', etc...

Do it the way _you_ have been able to do it... Why? Because you _know_ that works... you have the 'proof in the pudding' end result(ish - I know you still have much to do yet. )

I would ask though, break them up into separate videos... start with a short "Intro" video (here's the tools I used, you'll need, and how/where to install/find them/assets you'll need), then kick it to the l3dt video, then TesAnnwyn, etc... Keep em focused on the specific tool used at each stage... that way someone familiar with another HM tool (worldmachine, etc) or TesAnnwyn can simply skip what they don't need to watch... and those just getting into HM editing have a 'full go-to' guide.

Just my 2$ worth.

Thats the plan, to follow my own process from start to finish. People can jump in and out where they fancy. I wouldnt say I was the pioneer of large worldspaces in Oblivion, but I certainly had the biggest. When I showed my wife, she was shocked by the size of it. So I decided to go for something that was to the max in Skyrim, might as well start whopping and let the community have all the real estate they want. A 1GB download nowadays is nothing.

The only thing I have to overcome to get a working worldspace thats relatively bug free is to sort the save game issue where whenever I try to go into the custom worldspace via a save game it drops me in some xnxnxnx giants Inn or somesuch.

I linked the mesogea.esm to skyrim.esm in Wyre-bash but Maegfaer used TesVsnip, so therein may lay the problem. Ive asked Maegfaer once again to hold me hand through the whole thing, so once I have that sorted I'll get on with the tutorial. It wont be too onerous as I have a working map in L3dt that will eventually replace the one I am using to test my way through the whole thing. I will go from start to finish as I make it.

Oscape is windows limited being only available to people using vista or win7 its kinda worthless to well over half of us... who still prefer winxp.

In all fairness, a large-landmass project is not an undertaking for just one person. Collaboration is a foregon conclusion. That being the case, it should be possible to pick up at least one person with Vista or 7 who can generate the distant land through Oscaper. In fact, any Oscape user in the community would likely be willing, time permitting, to farm out to multiple large-landmass projects. It's not like the community will be competing with itself. After all, distant land LOD generation need not require a full-time commitment to a project. Only as long as it takes to generate the landscape using tools that the core team does not have access to based on the concern that SaidenStorm expressed.

This community is very good at supporting itself. We're not at each others' throats trying to beat each other to a punch. And I have yet to see anyone who pulls off something cool in one of their mods who is not eager to share how they did it. We are all students and teachers here. It is my sincere hope that this does not stop.

Add one more BIG vote to the interest list. I may never post but I'm on the forums and going through tutorials 24/7 (or something semi-close to that )

Don't worry, I haven't had even a drip of alcohol for almost 2 years now (and that at age 22!).

I think it's a good idea and I'm glad you're going to do it, because I don't have the time for it. I'd definitely put in the L3DT tutorial if I were you, it's by far the best way to make heightmaps, even small ones. Just cut the tutorials up in independent parts?

Well we could still use a decent tutorial on doing that...making a world that uses SKyrim's worldspace, but has it's own stuff (Maybe making a small city) to show how to use the basic Worldmaking tools, and then expand to making totally new worlds along the lines of Blackreach or Sovngard, which are their own miniworlds...

You have been around the community for all of 5 months ?!? -> generally it takes one modder to have gotten a heightmap and some distant land and general idea and at least a town or two and multiple foundations in place for mod direction to even be able to generate "ANY" interest for secondary parties to help out with larger mods.

I have seen people sit in the forums asking people to generate LOD for them for months with zero help coming during the oblivion era before Lightwave create his tool for doing this.

So anyone expecting that, if they are not able to generate or do not know how that they will be able to get it done by a secondary party are seriously dilluted.


Not true I have yet to ever ask for help with my worldspaces -> then again I never release my work either so its not an issue for me to just know how to do these things myself.


To an extent a very short extent, again you have been around all of 5 months I have seen people asking for help with issues taking days to weeks to months to get any if they ever get any help, usually if all people want is a direction or a question answered its quick but the second people need something that takes personal time its basically not going to happen.

And the old Oblivion CS LOD Black Checkerboard texture issue, being the prime example of people I watched literally beg for help in the forums to get none because this kind of help takes time and time if not something people are willing to just give away...


Modders have more then their fair share of competitiveness, without it whats the point if your not trying to do better then previous attempts they why even bother if all your doing is regurgitating the same work over and over.


Telling someone how you did something and doing it for them are two completely different things.

And in the case of Oscape it would require them to do it for you.

Either way if your going to make tutorials you should include every reasonable avenue to completion, and oscape is a restrictive option vs the CK right now.

What I'd like to see, first and foremost, is a step by step procedure in the CK to set up a worldspace that uses Tamriel as a base...so far, I haven't been able to even get the worldspace to actually pull in the terrain near the location I defined (I'm experimenting with the shoreline in the far NW corner of the map, right at the Hammerfell barrier, since it's easy to find and almost nothing is there)

http://i591.photobucket.com/albums/ss358/RedwoodElf/WorldDesign01.png (Cell temporarily renamed for easy finding)

http://i591.photobucket.com/albums/ss358/RedwoodElf/WorldDesign02.jpg (Note the selected cliff item being used as the anchor)

http://i591.photobucket.com/albums/ss358/RedwoodElf/WorldDesign03.jpg (Checked Use for all the data)

http://i591.photobucket.com/albums/ss358/RedwoodElf/WorldDesign04.jpg

I assure you, though THIS account has "been around for all of five months," I have been arounf since Morrowind. And I tell you what... I have Windows 7. When the full worldbuilding tutorial is released, I will offer my services to this community, provided that my schedule remains open enough to allow me to do so, to generate LODs for projects that need them, provided that there is no other alternative to Oscape.

Just for clarity I was not trying to suggest that alternative tools to Oscape be excluded from the Tutorials. I was just pointing out that those willing to serve a role withing many community projects could avail themselves to use Oscape if for some reason that proves to be the only recourse. It is not anyone else's fault if a project lead refuses to ask for help. Neither is it the project lead's fault if others refuse a request for help.

For my part, if I can be of assistance, I will gladly help. Like I said, as long as my schedule remains open enough to permit it. If a person has a technical limitation such as an operating system not able to use a crucial tool, there is no shame in asking for help. Especially if the one asking would have otherwise done the work himself if he could.

As long as the height map and any other required elements are provided, how much trouble would it be for someone to proccess it into a usable LOD resource and send it back to the person who requested it?

And as I understand it, LOD generation only becomes a real issue when the size of the world goes beyond 4x4 quad. For the average worldspace modder, that will be sufficient. And even with a complete tutorial, I would estimate that those who would undertake the development of a large-landmass worldspace to the scope of a full 16x16 quad map will be in the minority.

It took a full team at BGS YEARS to populate Skyrim's 4x4 quad world map with content. How bloody long will it take a single person to populate a 16x16 quad map? That's why I said that collaboration is a foregone conclusion. And as I see it, from the start you can recruit multiple team members if you are willing to sell your concept to those whose help building the content you will need. So before even starting work on the project, get the premise out there demonstrating what would be the draw-factor, aside from it being a huge land. That's not good enough. What will the player be doing in that huge land that cannot be done in a series of 4x4 quad worldspaces either linked to each other or just to Skyrim?

If the premise of the need for a huge world map is sound, then prople who believe in the project will want to get involved. Be open enough with them that while they help you build the world that they are free to incorporate their own ideas. That way they can be as creative within a collaborative project as they could on their own.

I'm not saying that finding people to assist is easy. It take presenting the request in such a way that answers both what is in it for them as well as for you.

Regardless of how long it takes to recruit help, undertaking a large-landmass project is NOT a short-term goal. Time to work on it period means their is also time to seek assistance.

As I said, when the worldbuilding tutorials come, I will learn Oscape and offer my services to those who have done all they can up to the point of generating the LODs. I'll handle it on a first-come first-served basis. managing workflow will not be a problem for me.

I want to help this community. I don't appreciate being judged according to how long my current account has been active. Especially by someone whose side I was taking in my post. That sort of thing makes me NOT want to bother. I don't have to be here. But I want to be. And while I am here, I want to be of assistance. I'm sorry if so few others feel the same way. We can't make people want to help each other. But I will lead by example by saying I want to help.

Well there we are...

Heck, what I'm mainly interested in is creating worldspaces where I can set up a major event (Like a battle) without corrupting the cells that occupy the same space at other times and interfering with other peoples' mods that might use those cells.

There'll be a ton of interest

Just video what you did that works and make sure the post linking the video(s) has a list of download links for the tools.

Those that want to do it badly enough will learn the external tools.

If/When the CK can handle more of the process, someone will update with the relevant "fixes"


Nice offer, mate

Multiple duplicates of that worldspace would be in order. If you limit your battle worldspace to just include the cells where the battle is to take place, and link it to the common world (full land) then you can set up conditions by which it is entered.

How big can a trigger be? Can one be set up along the paremeter of a series of cells that would contain your battle zone? Can the "You cannot go that way" mechanic placed around the borders of skyrim be used somehow or duplicated through some sort of script to make it so that instead of popping up a text box, it checks to see if a certain condition is met and then loads the player into the new worldspace are a very close proximity to where he was in the full world?

If you want to keep battle zones apart from regular versions where other peoples mods might share the space, then I do not believe that smooth seemless transition will be possible. I will admit though that my knowledge of large-scale worldspaces and advanced transition techniques is very limited. But sometimes even a layman can present an idea that experts can figure out how to make work. So I am not afraid to throw ideas around.

Yeah. Kinda like how entering a walled town works. It's a different cell(s), with cloned scenery and so on, outside the walls. You go to the clones when you enter via a door.

Problem is that if the cell has no easy "boundaries" (like town walls) then far-landscape will be a real pain (I think?).

In the end, I think this is just one more compatibility issue that you can't solve, if you want to mod what you want to mod. At some point (and you are at it, I think) you have to accept that if people want to play your mod, they may have to disable others that have impacts.

Nothing (that alters vanilla) will get made if everyone worries that there is a potential conflict.

EG: I put a door in the external wall of the Thalmor Embassy, to create an "external" store room. If someone else mods the embassy and/or the surroundings, it may cause issues with my mod. What can I do? Nothing ... Players would have to make a choice.

My "rule" is to make as few changes to vanilla as I possibly can ... but, the more radical your mod, the less that rule can be applied.