He may not fully support the empire at the time, but once he wrote that letter to Tullis to request his aid (after doing the wrong thing by returning the axe instead of physically going to windhelm himself to deal with Ulfric) he might as well become a full supporter of the empire, since he supports the aid of the empire and allowed the Imperials soldiers to come in whiterun.


What about the incident with the Gray-manes? Where was his help when the Battleborns was involved in the kidnapping of Thorald Gray-Mane? You would occasionally see Olfrid taunting the distraught Fralia Gray-Mane at her stand regarding to her son. Olfrid eventually confesses to her in a proud manner that he is held prisoner. Approx 4 feet away was a guard idling and did nothing. You can't help but to wonder if Battleborns bought the Jarl and the guards... you know the same way that Maven essentially did in the city of Riften.

Ulfric is not perfect as he is human but his reasons for the civil war is valid. He wants skyrim to become independent and free from the Empire. He also wants to rid of all Thalmor that the empire failed to eradicate in skyrim therefor allowing his fellow nords to openly worship Talos again. With Ulfric in control of skyrim People like Balgruuf and Elisif would no longer keep their worship of Talos as a secret fearing that the Thalmor will kill them. Yes even with their high status I can still see the Thalmor sending out their assassin's to kill the 2 and the empire would turn their backs like they've done to the people in skyrim for so long.



It might be her job to protect the jarl but isn't it obvious that right after you enter Dragonreach that the guards didn't seem to hesitate nor find you as a threat? Irileth overreacted. I can understand that theirs been an attempts on Balgruuf's life but wouldn't the guards be on a high alert? Shouldn't they been the ones to approach me?

And about the overly sensitive remark that you made there... In a role-playing POV less then 24 hours I've been snatch up by the imperials; was taken to Helgan to be wrongfully executed to which my name wasn't even on their list, (FYI: Balgruuf had no concern over since he clearly indicated from the dialog that he doesn't care who the imperials want to execute) http://bulk.destructoid.com/ul/user/5/59193-221671-NobiDragonJPG-620x.jpg. At this point I only trust my fellow prisoners, Ulfric and Ralof. Long story short I was told to speak to the Jarl of whiterun and that I did. With my characters nerves already ruffled up from almost getting killed by the imperials Irileth comes to me with her weapons drawn... almost made me draw mine out to defend myself. I call it irresponsible. Had she been my housecarl and did this to my guest I would've sent her ass to Sithis.


You're right and therefor this response will be on a brand new thread.

just to clear something up, olfrid didn't confess to knowing about his captivity, he sarcastically replied to her comment about him being captive "yes he is in my basemant" or something along those lines, as far as balgruuf and the guards know thorald is dead, they can't arrest someone for being mean, no matter how harsh they are being.

And although on the surface Ulfric is fighting for the independance of skyrim and the freedom of worship, but in actual fact, the further into the civil war you go, either way, it turns out to really just be a bid for power. On top of that he is a racist, proven by the segregation he introduced for dunmer and argonians when he took the throne of Eastmarch (windhelm)

You say it was the wrong thing, I say it was the smart thing. Ulfric is very strong willed and charismatic yes, Balgruuf is far smarter and ultimately wiser. Personally I prefer Balgruuf's decision, no sense in walking into potentially hostile territory and basically slapping Ulfric in the face. Balgruuf keeps his personal pride in check with more logical and rational thinking which I find infinitely more mature and respectable, but that is just my opinion.



I agree on a base point that the battle-borns were complete jerks (to put it politely), however he supported the stormcloaks and many of the guards view that as being a traitor. Turning a blind eye is not a very good guard thing to do I agree but the fact that the guard doesn't respond, I view that more as gameplay Ai rather than story.


The empire hasn't turned its back, the thing that Ulfric is too short sighted to see. Even after talking to Tullius it was clear that the empire knows what is on the horizon. I will take the intelligent military strategist's plan over the charismatic barbarian king's plan any day. All he sees is what is right in front of him, thalmor are bad, empire is being lazy, skyrim needs freedom. The empire sees the bigger picture and I would be easily willing to bet that they are keeping their eyes on all the provinces, even the ones that feel that got shafted by the white-gold concordant.



No, the guards take their orders from her on some level (evident by her sending troops to riverwood and commanding her men against the first dragon attack). Also, a good head of security doesn't over react, a good head of security makes sure that anyone just blindly approaching her protection detail is stopped. Go to a presidential or diplomatic event sometime and try to approach the diplomats, see how friendly the secret service are.


My role-playing POV: being snatched by the imperials and wrongfully accused of being a traitor (odd since I am a breton but whatever), I was taken to Helgen where I was to be wrongfully executed. Though when hearing tullius, hadvar, ralof, etc talk I was starting to get an idea of what was going on and desperately wanted to explain that what was going on was a mistake. Before I knew it a dragon attacks and I barely escape the dragon or the executioners axe. As I fled through Helgen I both heard and saw the stormcloaks scattering as the dragon attacked and the imperials trying to hold off the dragon and get the towns people to safety. Hadvar even managed to help me get through the debris and by the dragon and after seeing him decide to ignore Ralof since there were bigger fish to fry I followed him. After several instances of him trying to talk to the stormcloaks but they refused to actually talk and instead just attacked, we escaped and I was directed to whiterun to speak to the jarl. When I arrived I could clearly see that the guard was on edge from the news about Helgen, as I approached the jarl his housecarl drew her weapon and stopped me and demanded I explain myself. After I did she immediately put her sword away and things progressed.

I understand the point you were making but the issue is that simply comes down to personal mindset and ultimately is incapable of being debated. While pissed at the empire I also saw them as being the ones caring about the people during the dragon attack and were more concerned with that then their own hides. But that is how I viewed it, just like how I was annoyed by Irileth's actions but understood them and didnt take offense to them.

Why should Balgruuf go to Windhelm to meet with Ulfric? He followed the Nord traditions. It isn't "I'll send you a weapon and if you don't like it come talk to me." When the axe is sent, it's an ultimatum: You're either with me or against me.

Balgruuf's trying to look after his people, and doesn't want to enter a war that will just end up bleeding Skyrim dry.

When Ulfric sends his axe to Balgruuf, the message is "Submit to me or I will attack you," which is just a way to try and humiliate a long term rival. Ulfric seems to have it out for Balgruuf anyway, since when you go the the Palace of Kings Ulfric seems to b thinking about the best way to take Whiterun partially in terms of humiliating Balgruuf. So he sends the axe to either make the man lose his pride and become a dog of the Stormcloaks, or accept Ulfric's challenge.

When Balgruuf sends the axe to Ulfric it's an entirely different matter. He's heard that the Stormcloaks are planning to attack his city (which is true) and he's trying to avert war. He sends the axe to his fellow Jarl, basically asking "Is it true you're about to go to war with me?" At this moment Ulfric has the chance to have peace and possibly gain a valuable ally, but rather than reach out and accept Balgruuf's attempt to avoid any conflict, he ultimately decides that there will be war.

I took it to mean "If you attack my city, we will not go quietly." Especially since he seems convinced already that an attack is coming... I assumed he was just letting Ulfric know that there would be a price to pay, in blood, for attempting to take Whiterun.

It seems very similar to a symbolic gesture. The weapon is not an intimidation tactic, it's an invitation. In this sort of culture

Accepting the axe is akin to saying "I agree with your fight, and will take up your arms to do it"
Whereas refusing it is to say "Fight your own battle, I don't want to get involved"

The problem is, in this situation, both sides have been bandying around the issue so much they already know this is the last time it'll be asked. Ulfric can't press into imperial territory without Whiterun being secure(Should balgruuf choose imperials suddenly, Ulfric's troops would be easily cut off should they attempt to go around) Whereas the Empire wouldn't take kindly to Balgruuf siding with the stormcloaks and Whiterun would be their first move as well.

Balgruuf just has the misfortune of being in a key strategic position when the war breaks out.

Makes sense to me. And it gives basically the same meaning to the axe in either version, which seems appropriate. Altho I would say that in Ulfric's case, accepting the axe would be more like "I accept this weapon and will not raise it against you."


Yeah, it's not like Balgruuf can just sit by and *never* take a side. Altho with regard to his supposed neutrality, I would argue that it's impossible for him to be truly neutral. All of Skyrim was an Imperial province before the rebellion, and any hold that has not made a point of taking the Stormcloak side is *still* Imperial by default until they either join the rebellion or are "liberated" by force from Imperial rule. He's not neutral IMO and never was; the territory he controls is still part of the Empire at the start of the game. The issue really seems to be whether or not he will allow an Imperial garrison there, but if he does it won't make Whiterun any more "Imperial" than it already was. It will just make it easier for the Legion to ensure that it stays that way... whether Balgruuf likes it or not in the long run.

Which is why it's such a crucial decision for him, there's no denying that. Either way, someone else is going to be somewhat in control of his city and his hold for the duration of the war and once they are there it will be too late for him to have any second thoughts on the matter even if he were inclined to do so. But I don't see him as "neutral" at all at the start, I see him as trying to maintain the status quo, and for Skyrim the status quo is the Empire.

Balgruuf and Ulfric have been at odds for years as Gurdur admits, we also see in Dragonsreach his own Brother is so pro imperial he wants Proventus to persuade him to come around. These things really do point to him being a natural imperial supporter.

I think we all know that Whiterun is the vital hold in Skyrim both economically and strategically. My own bets are that Balgruuf knows that Whiterun is key and it will be fought over viscously by either side to win the war and that he wants to delay his entry to the fight until the pivotal moment that its advantageous for him to do so.

Whiterun is surrounded by other holds so it is vulnerable on all sides and he doesn't want to bring ruin to his people by making them a target of either side by a rash declaration of loyalty to any one side.

Ulfric ultimately forces his hand and there is enough bad blood between Balgruuf and Ulfric for both men to always end up as enemies no matter what the Dovahkiin chooses.

Well, Ulfric forces his hand if you play the Stormcloak side. If you play the Imperial side there is reason to believe that they manipulate him into thinking that Ulfric is forcing his hand, through the use of "embellished" reports regarding Stormcloak troop movements and concentrations. On the Imperial side, you could just as well say that Balgruuf forces Ulfric's hand when it comes to attacking Whiterun when he does, because once Ulfric knows Balgruuf is not going to come around it's a matter of some urgency to take Whiterun ASAP so the Imperials can't use it as a staging ground for attacks on existing Stormcloak positions.

Maybe I'm missing out something but I never got the feeling that Ulfric was only interested in power. Sure one of his priories is to become the next High King of skyrim, and to do that he must have support from the Jarls. That is part of rebuilding skyrim. Skyrim needs a strong High king that is willing to defend himself against an opponent and to fight for freedom. Elisif would be a terrible High Queen because she doesn't know how to fight nor have any combat experiences, and whats worst is that she would become the next empire puppet just like her husband back when he was High King. Ulfric wants to change that by making skyrim free from the Empire and to rid of the Thalmor that's been slaughtering the people in skyrim for so long.
What you're telling me that Ulfric is a racist because a few lazy dunmers and argonians that won't work harder? And that they will only take the jobs that the nords typically don't want? No offense but that's a terrible excuse to call someone a racist. If Ulfric is racist then why did he sold property to a Dunmer? Yes lets not forget http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Belyn_Hlaalu who actually works hard to make ends meat. Also theirs a couple of Altmer's conducting their business, and have houses in windhelm.
Niranye (Altmer) mentions the treatment of the Dark elves in Windhelm: On a personal basis she has a keen assessment of the discrimination shown to the Dunmer in Windhelm. When asked "Are you treated as badly as the Dark Elves?" she replies by saying "It was difficult at first. The Nords of this city are, at best, suspicious of outsiders. (As they should be) But in time I made the right friends and proved myself useful enough that they don't give me trouble anymore. The Dunmer are too proud and naive to see the way things truly are, and so they continue to dwell in that slum." - Taken off of http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Niranye



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ztizQmmvYA.
I accept your opinions about Balgruuf because it is your right to do so however I would've respected him more had he went to Windhelm himself to speak with Ulfric as a last result of preventing a war from occurring in whiterun, instead of playing the axe game risking the lives of his people in whiterun. and using the dragonborn as a messenger boy. I would've like to have seen some history exchanging remarks by both men. I felt that I was cheated out of information.
Balgruuf spreads lies in his own word "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ztizQmmvYA” The empire has done nothing to prevent the Thalmor from slaughtering the nord people for worshiping Talos. They may not like it but they essentially look the other way and committed treason against the people in Skyrim for not protecting them against the the Thalmor. Had Balgruuf experience what Ulfric did then maybe he would view things a tad bit more differently.


Yes they did. They haven't done nothing to stop the Thalmor from slaughtering the people in skyrim because it's their way of enforcing the white gold concordat. Ulfric has personal experience with them and knows what kind of threat that they poses. You said it yourself that the empire is being lazy and that skyrim needs freedom. What do you think Ulfric is trying to do? Sure he wants to be the next king of skyrim but also wants to rebuild the country at the same time. What is so wrong with that? Do you honestly believe that the Jarl of Solitude is fit to be queen? If I remember correctly she became vocal during the meeting with the greybeards. General Tullis had interrupt her because she was way out of line, not queen like meterial if shes not able to control her emotions during an important meeting.. Or worst Balgruuf who is too blind to know whats truly going on, and wont fight for his and for his peoples rights to openly worship talos? Tell me who's fit to become the next high king or High queen of skyrim if Ulfric isn't the man to do it? Theirs some Jarls who are considered stormcloak supporters who doesn't support everything that Ulfric does but understands his morals.


Your character must be a forgiving person as my character is the complete opposite. My character also pleaded but right after hearing the captains reaction to Hadvar question about my character not being on the list my character started hating the imperials. He started to view them as savages. Is it no wonder why he sided with the stormcloaks? After all he just came back from Cyrodiil because he decided that Skyrim was his home and wand up getting captured after a brief scuffle with the imperial soldiers (which explains why he was unconscious in the wagon) and was being sent to Helgan to be executed.

Sending the axe is a Nord tradition. You keep acting like it's a snub but it's really an important part of their culture it seems. From my viewpoint it seems to be the signal that the sender thinks that they're on the brink of war, and is pretty much seeing if the other side is willing to avoid it. You send the axe when it's not safe to appear to ask to negotiate in person, because for all you know the other side has already made their mind up, in which case you're walking into a deathtrap. Instead you send a messenger with your weapon. If war's to be avoided, they offer their own weapon. It's a token gesture to show that they're willing to come to the negotiating table one last time, unarmed, and in the pursuit of peace. If war is going to happen, the person sends back the axe, basically saying "You're going to need this real soon."

Sure, Balgruuf sends an axe to Ulfric, but that's not instigating a fight. He's responding to news that the Stormcloaks are massing outside of his city and preparing to invade. He's not sending the same message as Ulfric when he sends the axe. If he was, he'd launch an attack on Windhelm after Ulfric returns the weapon. Either way you look at it, Ulfric is the aggressor, as he's the one preparing to invade a neighboring hold.

If you really feel you were cheated out of a conversation, take it up with Ulfric. Remember, he's the kind of guy who's only willing to meet at the negotiating table if just him appearing guarantees him more territory.

This parallels the traditions of some indigenous human cultures. Once you approach a guarded territory or an encampment, a sentinel will throw you an arrow or a javelin (of course missing). If you ignore it, you're an unwelcome gust, if you pick it up and break it (or plant firmly into the ground) that means you come in peace.