If this were true, than Ulfric is not a murderer, but simply an activist taking part in an ancient nordic tradition that advances his cause.

Ulfric killed one person... How many people has the Davahkiin killed?

His actions led to the deaths of hundreds of soldiers and civilians.

Which is what the people in the game who actually know what happen seem to think as well, like Sybile Stentor and I get the impression Laila Law-Giver shares this view. Nothing in the game or lore dictates that duels are illegal, you can even be challenged to a duel(to the death) in a random encounter. He used a tradition that is made to allow Jarls to question the High King to further his own position.

A little off topic: Something I find funny is how the Imperial supporters claim he only have lust for the throne and the Stormcloak supporters claim he is doing it to free Skyrim. Seems there aren't that many who consider the opportunity that his motives are a mix of the two.

Not really. Ulfric was not a follower of the Way of the Voice. Is the Dragonborn a heretic everytime he/she shouts at something? Heck, Jurgen Windcaller only won people over to the Way by shouting at them until they listened. An irony to be sure, but very Nord-ic all the same.


Official sanction? Of course not. The Empire couldn't be caught actively allowing its citizens to break the White Gold Concordat without risking open war with the Aldmeri Dominion. But you can bet dollars to doughnuts that there was some sort of shadowy figure standing behind Igmund, offering him money and promises.

The Jarls of Solitude were historically the High Kings, and were historically the most open to Imperial influence. Coincidence? I think not. Torygg may have entertained the idea of a free Skyrim, but he publicly took the opposite stance. He knew that he was High King so long as he did what the Empire wanted. As soon as he stopped, it was a knife in the dark and his "grieving" widow takes the throne, backed at the moot by Jarls like Igmund with Imperial coin in their pockets. Even Balgruuf couldn't escape the taint of Imperial money. "That's not the point," he said, but in a voice that showed he knew it didn't matter what the point was. He had taken the money, after all.


Obviously it was both. He wanted a free Skyrim, and he wanted to be king. The main question is, which one was the driving factor behind his rebellion. In the results, it doesn't matter much, but in the question of what kind of man he was, it is a big deal.

IIRC Elisif says something along the lines of "When he(Ulfric) came before my husband he shouted and Torygg simply ceased to exist" if you ask about Toryggs death. No mentioning of a duel or a challenge. She present the case as if he just walked in a assassinated the High King.

I find it funny how they see Ulfric as a power-hungry megalomaniac for wanting to rule his own country, which as a Jarl he has a right to do if the support for it is there, whereas apparently it's just fine and dandy for the Empire and its Emperor to insist on ruling not only their own country but also as much of the rest of Tamriel as they can get and keep, by force if necessary.

So: wanting to rule your own country makes you a power-hungry megalomaniac.

But: wanting to rule your own country AND everybody else's country is perfectly acceptable behavior.

Explanation: IOIYAI (It's Okay If You're An Imperial).

Sense: this makes none.

I see what both the Empire and the Stormcloaks are getting at, but I don't think the stormcloaks need to be so aggressive to get their point across. Normally, diplomacy is key in politics, not always aggression, especially in these delicate times in Tamriel.

What makes his claim unjust, exactly? The High King of Skyrim isn't a feudal title. Blood isn't honored, strength is.

The only time the Empire chose the High King was when they paid the Jarls to cast their vote in the moot.

As for Ulfric's alleged lies, you have absolutely zero percent proof that he's lying at all. Please stop speaking as if you do. You don't. You only come off as an Empiredrone programmed with Imperial propaganda and programmed to refuse anything that goes against an Imperial agenda, which is extremely sad seeing as you're a person in the real world and not some citizen in the game.

You're really, really stretching here. Stick to the real arguments. There are good ones, this is just silly.

LOL Not like outlawing Talos worship....

A few NPCs do say that about Torygg, actually. Also the book I referred you to states the same thing, not about Torygg specifically but about Skyrim's kingship being a joke in recent years.

Well, while I normally agree there is little to no choice for them at this point. Their views are in direct defyance of the White Gold Concordat which is a peace treaty the Empire believes they have to uphold for some time yet(and maybe they do, we do not know), and they refuse to back down from this. Many also seem to have lost faith in the Empire and is therefor rallying behind Ulfric who fights for Skyrims independence.

If they could just stick with the Empire for the time being, maybe later they could defeat the Dominion and secede. Then they could do whatever the heck they want.

Actually, I recall overhearing Ulfric using "Fus" during my stay in Markarth prior to the "Incident" He was using it to knock guards off the walls while his own men scaled ladders and resumed their place. While a considerable power for a mortal, I've witnessed the Dragonborn use that Thu'um considerably more effectively. I don't consider Ulfric to be vastly skilled in this area. However I do believe that he used it, however ineffectively to knock the High King off balance whereupon Ulfric simply stabbed him in the heart.

To an uneducated witness, it would appear that the Thu'um was the cause of death. With Ulfric not sticking around to correct this error, the myth so began. I'd imagine Ulfric would rather be enjoying this undeserved reputation. He is quite the politician.

Knowing Ulfric he probably loves the fact that people think he shouted Torryg to pieces. lol.

That statement is quite different than what is being implied in Skyrim. Ulfric being rational about death is one thing, the more important thing for one proclaiming to speak for Nord everywhere is that one should be willing to die for ones cause. Ulfric does not seem willing. Though he is happy to send farmers to their deaths fighting well drilled professional solders, when his own life is threatened he runs or freezes up.

Actually, he doesn't seem to like that rumor when you ask him about it.

The Skyrim mod editor, whatever you call the program, lists Ulfric as having two shouts: Fus, and disarm. However, they're disabled.

If you ask Ulfric, he says he shouted Torygg to the ground and stabbed him in the heart.

What? When you bust into windhelm imperial side and beat him, he doesn't give up and ask for mercy. He sits on his throne and waits for death.

I am not so sure he is unwilling, but the Civil War had already started in a small scale by the time the duel was fought(according to Salof it was years since he was wounded in a Stormcloak skirmish). I think it is highly possible that Ulfric knew that he would not be given a fair judgement when he killed the HIgh King in the center of Imperial authority when his ultimate plan was to take over and secceed.

That is not the sign of a brave man, that is the sign of a man that has given up. A brave man, I should say, a brave Nord, would fight till every last moment of life had gone.

... What? He had an entire army in his keep and did fight until the end. He was on his absolute last legs. It's an homage to the thirteenth warrior because the guy who voice acts Ulfric played Buliwyf.

He fights, poisoned and bloodied, until the last and then he sits on his throne and dies. Jesus wept, some Imperial players will try to steal the coolness out of anything the Stormcloaks have, even their leaders death.

He certainly didn't go out wimpering like Tulius. Tulius gave up BEFORE the final battle. Rikke stands for him, forcing him to take part.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-wrEf8uAxw

Watch this.

He does fight. Tullius and Rikke give their little speel and then he stands up and he and galmar both attack you(And tullius and Rikke)

As far as I can tell, when there are two opposite extremes in opinion, the truth is usually somewhere in the middle. That's why I feel that Ulfric, while somewhat self-centered and egotistical, is ultimately doing what is better for Skyrim. However, I do feel that Skyrim needs to stand with Hammerfell and whoever else is willing to take the fight to the Thalmor. But that is not the Empire. The Empire lets the Thalmor do as they please and even betrayed us Redguards when we refused to take the cowards route of submitting to wigged-out, genocidal elves. If Hammerfell can survive without the Empire, so can Skyrim. And Ulfric is going to do a much better job of leading Skyrim through the hardships that would bring than Elisif, who seems to have trouble ruling one hold. But anyways in the context, I don't think that Ulfric is a murderer. He just had multiple advantages to the point where Torrygg stood no chance at all.

Then forgive my rudeness, I did not witness his death first hand and should know better than to believe in Imperial tales. My point does still stand however. His bravery in death came about because he had no choice in the matter. How Tullius would die is irrelevant. He is a professional soldier, an imperial who is not bound by the primitive traditions of the Nords over death and glory.

Poisoned? Ulfric certainly wasn't poisoned when I lopped his head off. Some Stormcloak players try to claim that some Imperial players are overtly biased, while they themselves are biased. It's delicious.