[Lucy]

This will replicate and replace USKP (Kivan's Patch) with USBFP (a community coordinated effort).

This week, there have been 2 bugs in USKP itself reported. ... Or do we need a bugfix patch for USKP itself?

Currently, USKP 1.0 posted on skyrim nexus and steam workshop is badly broken (due to a bug in Skyrim 1.6 itself), making the game unplayable for over a month. The temporary 1.05 beta is also broken and has not been updated for weeks, in a manner that harms 2 major character types: mage and thief.

Examining the USKP, some bugs in 1.0 and 1.05 beta do not seem fixable by a separate patch to the patch. Therefore, USBFP must replace USKP entirely.

Is there a well-known protocol around here for forking community efforts such as this?

As nobody has identified a standard method of forking community efforts, I'm starting a discussion. Please focus on technical facilities and improvements. Arguments and flaming will be considered off topic, as a matter of course.

What do we need to do to fork this promptly, without undue reliance on any one person?

[Soku Nyorah]

I question the logic behind starting up a separate project with the same goal.

Why not just join the USKP effort? That would solve the issue with USKP being reliant on one person (though AFAIK it's not). What is the benefit from bringing in another bug fixing effort?

More user confusion, less dialogue with Bethesda and a decrease in efficiency is all I can see from this.

[Heather M]

There is a very good reason the USKP is not being developed by the whole community: how can we trust all the bug reports received for it to be legitimate? The vast majority of bug reports they receive are due to improper mod usage, mod conflicts, bad INI Edits, and whatever user-end problems people cause for themselves causing the game to break down. We need people who know what they are doing to filter out the legitimate bugs from the garbage, and that is something that I, personally, do not trust a "community-driven effort" do be capable of.

Also, you picked a very bad time to advertise your desire to hijack someone else's mod. Ever since the Steam Workshop debacle, people have been hyper-aware of mod theft attempts, and I don't see anyone taking your "you can't do it right, so I'll do it better for you" spiel very kindly.

[Rob Davidson]

Hello
First i am not native english speaker i am sorry if my english is not so good... and if my answer is not pertinent just forget it.
I worked long time ago as a helper for a project who was based on an already existing project

Here was "if i remember right" some steps can be use for your project DayDreamer

- Cleaning up the duplicate version of USKP ( quote : USBFP must replace USKP entirely)
All Text (typo, spelling, subtitle mismatch, dialogue, wrong item name) must be removed from USKP,
then maybe create a similar 6strings files such as the http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/5351 specific for USBFP
this will give us a USBFP - text.esp who can be improved by other members separately to the main developement.

Found where the USKP is broken and removed it; i suppose this will the first hard work to do, creating a new USBFP -uskp fixes.esp
can be a good idea if people want to use both USKP and USBFP

All scripting fixes same on a specific USBFP -scripting.esp


Well specific area is built as a specific additionnal .esp for the beginning then merge them can be a good option, or go ahead to keep additionnal .esp instead of a unique .esp

- USBFP itself
I wonder why a mod project cannot be done by a community i mean an "open source" project where everyone who want to participate can do it if they got permission to do it. Maybe it the mod structure itself who cannot be done by a host project such as google code. Except for scripts/texts who can be put into google code then improved them i don't know if its possible with other stuff such as textures/meshes.

USBFP project follow additionnal .esp a member can work on a specific .esp even if this member doesn't know anything about textures/meshes or advanced stuff. many more users can work together is that way.

Finally this will depend if we need a unique main USBFP .esp or if additionnal .esp could be better than only one.
We finally could have :
USBFP - main : all main bug fixes (all .esp files) a merged file
USBFP - text : all corrected text
USBFP - uskp fixes : corrected bugs from removed broken uskp fixes
USBFP - scripting : all corrected scripts from quests, npc, ai whatever
USBFP - texture/meshes

Using a bug tracker is really important to track these bugs and heard about request.
If google code or similar hosting project can be use (for text/script) this can be awesome.

Good luck and have fun.

[*Chloe*]

The temporary 1.05 beta is also broken and has not been updated for weeks, in a manner that harms 2 major character types: mage and thief.

Um, I usually play a stealth/magic hybrid, and I haven't noticed anything broken? Then again, I do use my fair share of magic and rebalancing mods.

Also, I'd agree with the above posters that starting up a new project from scratch isn't the best way to go about this. I have great faith in the people currently in charge of the USKP, and I believe Thomas's points concerning community bug reporting are very valid.

[Emily Graham]

...
- USBFP itself
I wonder why a mod project cannot be done by a community i mean an "open source" project where everyone who want to participate can do it if they got permission to do it. Maybe it the mod structure itself who cannot be done by a host project such as google code. Except for scripts/texts who can be put into google code then improved them i don't know if its possible with other stuff such as textures/meshes.

Using a bug tracker is really important to track these bugs and heard about request.
If google code or similar hosting project can be use (for text/script) this can be awesome.

Good luck and have fun.

Just to take these points you made:

• USKP is already a community project. Anyone is free to volunteer, and everyone working on it is a member of this community.
  
• USKP is already as "open-source" as is possible, given that Bethesda has not released the plugin file format. Read: it's not open source, but that's because it can't be.
  
• Putting individual scripts or text into a SVN system then having to copy/paste them back into the plugin whenever they're updated sounds like a hell of a job.
  
• USKP already has a bug tracker that is used in the manner you suggest.

I too agree with Thomas's point about most people not knowing their elbows from their knees (so to speak) when dealing with bugs. It's a very valid and important point. There needs to be some sort of vetting procedure.

EDIT: Disclaimer: I suppose I should point out that I'm not a member of the USKP team, so I might get some of the things I say wrong.

EDIT 2: OK, so when I made my above post I hadn't previously seen the discussion in the USKP thread, but I have now. Going with that knowledge, so far I'm just seeing an attempt at doing good that is unfortunately ill-advised and being pushed for by people who are feeling a bit impatient and do not really know what they're dealing with.

To put things in perspective, Kivan has been around for nearly 9 years. He knows what he's talking about and what he's doing. He's earned the respect of Bethesda's QA team to the point that they agreed to keep a dialogue open with the USKP people, to try and back-port fixes. He has a rock-solid reputation for delivering working, appropriate, well-made fixes. The two people I've seen posting in favour of the idea of this project have none of those things, by a very, very long shot.

Before anyone accuses me of being elitist, I'm not talking about having a high post count or being one of the "old guard" being a requirement to work on the USKP. I just think you should be able to demonstrate that you have an intimate knowledge of how Bethesda's Gamebryo-based games work, and have a reputation like Kivan's.

I would very much prefer to have the USKP in safe hands. The UOP is one of the finest examples of the work of any modding community, and as such the bar for the USKP is very high indeed. We don't need what I can only see as being a second-rate project doing exactly the same thing.

[Jinx Sykes]

I've been using 1.05 of USKP since Steam forced Skyrim 1.6.89 onto me, and the game has been perfectly playable with my stealth-based character. If you're experiencing problems, it's probably due to a conflict with something else installed in your game. I notice that you haven't actually explained what this supposed fault in USKP 1.05 is which makes the game unplayable. Looking through your recent posts in the actual USKP thread, one of the issues appears to be a single NPC not selling all the spells she should sell, which is certainly not game-breaking. The other issue seems to be with Kivan's website being hacked and/or the bug-tracking site not functioning correctly, which again is not game-breaking (not even game-affecting).

So what in USKP 1.05 is making the game unplayable, how come it doesn't appear to be affecting anybody else?

[Darlene DIllow]

I am totally agree with your post http://www.gamesas.com/user/359506-wrinklyninja/;
let's say that i am a newbie modder on this community.

I wanna help them with what i can do.
First i will check the https://unofficialskyrimpatch.16bugs.com/projects/7078 website (i assume is the older one so this is this bug tracker we are talking about) with open bugs (733) and finally there are http://bugzilla.darkcreations.org/describecomponents.cgi?product=Unofficial%20Skyrim%20Patch%20(USKP).
Which one to use ? I mean which one is currently updated ?

Then using a google code website can be use for several way :
- allowed people can post bugs without using any mods (means people who hunt bugs are not anonymous and got a permission to do it) >> people do it well without any mods installed and on vanilla terms)
- allowed people can edit scripts and upload an updated version and history modification are save. then copy/paste to skyrim folder, recompile it whatever
- allowed people who want to edit something "right now" can do it itself cause they got access to do it and no need to wait an answer from someone directly. they made the edit, if it is not good; got bad feedback and then come back to previous revision.

[nath]

I am totally agree with your post http://www.gamesas.com/user/359506-wrinklyninja/;
let's say that i am a newbie modder on this community.

I wanna help them with what i can do.
First i will check the https://unofficialskyrimpatch.16bugs.com/projects/7078 website (i assume is the older one so this is this bug tracker we are talking about) with open bugs (733) and finally there are http://bugzilla.darkcreations.org/describecomponents.cgi?product=Unofficial%20Skyrim%20Patch%20(USKP).
Which one to use ? I mean which one is currently updated ?

Then using a google code website can be use for several way :
- allowed people can post bugs without using any mods (means people who hunt bugs are not anonymous and got a permission to do it) >> people do it well without any mods installed and on vanilla terms)
- allowed people can edit scripts and upload an updated version and history modification are save. then copy/paste to skyrim folder, recompile it whatever
- allowed people who want to edit something "right now" can do it itself cause they got access to do it and no need to wait an answer from someone directly. they made the edit, if it is not good; got bad feedback and then come back to previous revision.

I don't know about your questions, you'd have to ask a team member.

How is the use of Google Code as you prescribe any different from what can be done already? I'm familiar with it, and I would not want to use it for working on a mod myself. Programming projects, yes, but not mods.

[joseluis perez]

Well i agree with you, only text or script can be done and edited a complete updated changelog too.
For example, a unique corrected text such as https://unofficialskyrimpatch.16bugs.com/projects/7078/bugs/216103 not with the 55 comments but a unique .esp (USBFP -text fixes.esp) who can be updated separately.

[Matthew Barrows]

I fail to see how using Google Code will help.

Also, I fail to see why this project is needed when we've already got the USKP. The rationale behind this one doesn't make too much sense. For all things related to fixing bugs, there needs to be a core group who weeds out what are actually bugs and what are not. Then they need to decide which bugs are actually worth fixing and which ones aren't. Then they need to determine the best course of action to fix said bugs. If left as a free-for-all, we'd end up with something that's more of a monstrosity than anything.

That said, if one wants to help with the USKP then go and talk with the team behind it. This is not the route to take and only leads to needless drama.

[Nicole M]

Best thing is to compile a list of fixes made by modders (1 ups as I call em as they normally focus on 1 problem found by playing Skyrim itself) to be considered adding to the USKP when it gets updated. But that should be done in the USKP thread. So it's best to either create fixes yourself and add them or list them by other modders in the USKP thread. Much of why I use USKP is so that I don't have a lot of esps loaded for fixes (but Gecko helped in the past).

This thread is a waste and clearly shows that you are a noob to the community. Go back to daydreaming...

[Britney Lopez]

I'm not going to say that I doubt you lack the skill to create a serious bug-fixing patch, but I will say that you can't replicate and replace USKP.

They're a trusted part of the community and they will continue to still in-fact work on USKP. This means USKP will continue to expand. Many people rely on USKP and even if you did catch up, there's very little reason to choose a patch that demands USKP can't be used especially when they're known for user cooperation and fixing things on a grand scale.

Copying/pasting and then adding your own bits of fixes is not a good road to go down. Just see if you can apply to work with the USKP team instead.

Examining the USKP, some bugs in 1.0 and 1.05 beta do not seem fixable by a separate patch to the patch. Therefore, USBFP must replace USKP entirely.

So why don't we suggest these bugs in-particular to be fixed (which is highly suggested) instead of trying to step in all over their hard work.

[Red Bevinz]

Creating a patch, to fix a patch? This idea would only create confusion, IMO. Leave the 'unofficial' patching to those most experienced with it, and offer your help to the team. That would be far more beneficial than grasping for some type of glory for yourself.

[helen buchan]

In this case why not DayDreamer make his own patch and found help with other members ?
I remember that "Weapons and Armor fixes" by headbomb bring a lot of fixes and i have read in Note 1:
quote :
Note 1: You should load the Unofficial Skyrim Patch (USP) before Weapons and Armor Fixes (WAF), as WAF contains many many more fixes than the USP.

Reading all your posts let me say that most of you don't/will not trust any other bug fixes patch mod who is not made by Kivan (who is well-trusted and got reputation).

He (DayDreamer) maybe doesn't want to join USKP staff or for any other reason. I don't found that bad.

[RUby DIaz]

Reading all your posts let me say that most of you don't/will not trust any other bug fixes patch mod who was not made by Kivan (who is well-trusted and got reputation).
He (DayDreamer) maybe don't want to join USKP staff or any other reason. I don't found that bad.

No, what we are saying is that the aim and attitude of this project is not really the best.

Redoing the USKP just because you are unhappy with it, among other reasons, and requesting that everyone move to it and deprecate the USKP when it is still being actively developed when this one has no proven track record whatsoever is not at all the way to go and has the potential to cause a lot of issues and drama.

[Robert DeLarosa]

If your concerned about the progress USKP has had recently why not apply to join the team? Instead of splitting the time and resources of the community to create two bug fixing patches that aim to do the same thing?

[Skrapp Stephens]

At best a worthless and fool hardy attempt to help. At worst, an ill advised attempt to hijack the work of one of the communities most trusted and respected members. WN expressed this perfectly.

BTW, 1.05 works perfectly for me. What exactly is your issue with it?

[Kathryn Medows]

At best a worthless and fool hardy attempt to help. At worst, an ill advised attempt to hijack the work of one of the communities most trusted and respected members. WJ expressed this perfectly.

BTW, 1.05 works perfectly for me. What exactly is your issue with it?

WJ? With regards? Maybe WN, with regards.

[Brιonα Renae]

WJ? With regards? Maybe WN, with regards.

Corrected.

[Vicki Gunn]

Approved