Vampirism & Lycanthropy

Post » Tue May 29, 2012 3:11 am

Vampires are just a copy/paste from Oblivion with a dumb down bonus, and lycanthropy doesn't even have forced transformation. >_>
I mean, really?
Do some things really have to get dumbed down for casuals?

Vampires not being able to die on sun and removal of forced transformation for werebeasts... REALLY!?

When I heard about vampires being in TES, I thought that they will have an ability to freeze enemies with their breath (please don't be stupid and say that I can use ice shouts instead), that they are able to pass trough ice and have secret lairs in caves on bottom of the lakes, that you are forced to hide your true identity while above ground so people won't attack you and that you will start a whole new life as a vampire.
In the end, we just got a dumbed down version of Oblivion vampires (as if they were not pathetic enough already). ^_^
Also, it's simply idiotic that you get affected by the sun only because it's day EVEN THOUGH YOU ARE IN MIDDLE OF THE BLIZZARD AND THERE IS NOT A SINGLE RAY OF SUNLIGHT IN SIGHT!

And werebeasts are even better!
There are no werebears even thought there should be and you can turn into a werewolf as you wish!
How stupid is that!?
What's the point of having a curse if it's not bothering you in any way!?
And before any of you says that you can regenerate your HP only by eating NPCs and can't use inventory and etc. let me tell you that it still does NOT make it a curse!
It's like having a cancer which will kill me only if I tell him to!
I also heard that when you reach higher levels you are actually stronger in your normal from than in werebeast form since it doesn't scale with you (still have to confirm it myself). -.-
Also, it is [censored] idiotic that you can't play in first person as a werewolf (together with all other forced 3rd person crap during svcking blood as vampire, finishers, riding a horse, etc.).
I would also prefer if werewolves looked more like they did in Daggerfall and Morrowind instead of this Underworld-like look, but that's just mine personal preference.

Anyway.
Both vampirism and lycanthropy svck big time and are perfect example of series being dumbed down for casuals.

Also, bonuses (am not sure one can call them that way, but whatever) you gain as vampire/werewolf are also pretty bad.

What are your opinions on this?
Also, how do you think this can be improved in your opinion?
Here is a rough concept of how I think that vampirism and lycanthropy should look like in Skyrim.
They are not perfect, but I think that they are step in right direction.

-Vampirism:
Spoiler
100% frost/poison/disease resistance, 100% fire weakness, takes 25 damage per second from sunlight (a vampire shouldn't be affected by this in case there is no sun, ie. it's cloudy, rain if falling, blizzard is raging etc.), Nightstalker's Footsteps (+25% harder to detect), Frost Breath (will explain below), Icewalker (able to go trough ice - should work something like Oblivion's Water Walking spell; able to walk on ice, but if you walk down, you will dive under, and if you walk up while under the ice, you will emerge up) and Vampire Sight (just like now, it's a power which improves vision during night and can be toggled on and off) at all stages.

Frost Breath is a power which can be used as much as you wish, but uses MP, works like Frostbite (Destruction spell) and uses mouth for casting instead of hand and it doesn't benefit from any Destruction perks or improve that skill.
When enemy is low on HP, he will get frozen as if he was under the effect of Ice Form Shout.
When frozen, a vampire can svck enemies blood.
A vampire can also svck blood from sleeping NPCs.
svcking blood will also give a 100% HP/SP regeneration to a vampire for 60 seconds.

There should be 5 stages of vampirism; 1st stage is stage when vampire is well fed and has no penalties, 2nd stage is when vampire doesn't drink blood for 24h and gains 50% negative regeneration to HP/MP/SP, 3rd stage is when vampire doesn't drink blood for another 24h and gains 100% negative regeneration to HP/MP/SP, 4th stage is when vampire doesn't drink blood for yet another 24h and gains 150% negative regeneration to HP/MP/SP (yes, those 3 will start to decrease now), and finally, in case vampire doesn't drink blood for yet another 24h, he will gain 200% negative regeneration to HP/MP/SP (this could be a good concept for sleeping/eating/drinking for HC mode also).

A very important part of being a vampire in Skyrim is that vampires should have secret lairs on bottom of frozen lakes with their own society and quests.
A vampire should be able to walk normally and talk normally with other NPCs at all stages of vampirism.
Vampire doesn't have any benefits from food/drink and does not benefit from sleeping - you can still eat/drink/sleep though, only without benefits (in case HC mode gets implemented, vampires won't be affected by lack of eating/drinking/sleeping).

-Lycanthropy:
Spoiler
A werecreature in humanoid form should have gain 25% extra regeneration to HP/SP, 100% resistance to diseases, 50% resistance to poison, and have wolves or bears as allies (depending if you are werewolf or werebear) and will defend you if you get into trouble.
There will be a forced transformation once a week which will turn you into a werebeast, give certain bonuses and will last for 8h.
While in were-from, you will have all the bonuses from your humanoid form, but HP/SP regeneration bonus will be 100%.
You will also suffer from Bloodlust - will need to hunt down, kill and eat a certain amount of prey (doesn't matter if it's NPC or animal) in order to satisfy your bloodlust.
In case you don't, you will get weaker in both your human and beast form (1st stage of weakness will remove the bonus regeneration, 2nd stage will add 50pt penalty to total HP/SP and 3rd will add 100pt penalty to total HP/SP).
Also, while in were-form, you will gain 75% damage reduction (both physical and magical attacks), but will have 150% weakness to silver.
You will also gain a Howl of Rage ability which works just like current one and will get Lycantrop's Senses, a constant ability which will give you night-eye and detect life in large radius while in were-form.
Eating will improve HP/SP regeneration by additional 100% for 60 seconds.

Difference between werebear and werewolf is that werebear will gain 150 HP bonus and 50 SP bonus while in beast form, and werewolf will gain 50 HP bonus and 150 SP bonus while in beast form.
Also, while werebears will have faster movement and attack speed, they will not be as fast as werewolf's (werebears will deal higher damage though).

Other bonuses:
- Crimes committed as a werewolf don't give you bounty.
- Can perform a leaping power attack that insta-kills most opponents.To do this, perform a power attack while sprinting towards the target, in Beast Form.
- Can occasionally pick up (by the neck) and throw humanoid enemies great distances, as well as biting off their heads, both for an instant kill.
- Can use power attacks with either claw which does a great deal of damage and sends your opponent flying.
- Achieving a critical hit will make you do a execution (similar to slow-mo kills but not in slow motion). These will kill your opponent instantly. (This is good for defeating powerful enemies quickly without endangering yourself.)
- Can't loot the corpses of anything you kill.
- Can't pick up items.
- Can't use Weapons, Spells, Items, Equipment, Shouts, or Powers.
- May have trouble fitting through doorways.
- Can't speak with anyone.
- Almost everyone becomes hostile (some other werewolves will sometimes not object to you changing in front of them).
- Can't use the character menu.

Unlike current Skyrim lycanthropy, you can sneak, regenerate in battle, and get resting bonuses (you won't get them only if you don't satisfy your bloodlust).
In case the word about you being a werebeast gets out (ie. you are seen transform), you will get a 1000 gold bounty on your head and will be randomly attacked by werebeast hunters (when bounty is paid, hunters will stop hunting you).
In case you kill all the witnesses, you secret will be safe.

Having Hircine's Ring equipped will remove forced transformations (you will be able to transform once a week as you wish) and will remove Bloodlust.

There.
Like I said, I doubt it's perfect, but I think it's a good improvement over current ones.
Feel free to give any suggestions for improving this!

Oh, and here is one song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvZrZICjg0M and one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTgtkLDGz2I (lyrics in descriptions). ^_^
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Stephanie Valentine
 
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Post » Tue May 29, 2012 3:59 am

People talking about 'the casuals' give me a headache. That is all.
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Isabella X
 
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Post » Mon May 28, 2012 9:28 pm

Make what you will of it, I love RPing as a Werewolf.
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yessenia hermosillo
 
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Post » Mon May 28, 2012 7:46 pm

Yeah!!!!! Down with the casuals!!! It's all their fault!!!!



Honestly I liked being a wolf AND a vamp, but I didn't stick with either of them because of the side effects.
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JaNnatul Naimah
 
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Post » Tue May 29, 2012 2:58 am

Dracula could walk around unharmed in the sunlight, though he was weakened by it. It wasn't until the 20th century that vampires were depicted as being destroyed by sunlight. I'm all for vampires that can walk around in daylight, so long as it doesn't make them sparkle. However I do think that vampires should be able to drink the blood of their followers and enemies.

It's true about werewolves being useless at higher levels though. I'm at level 39 and I just tear through enemies with my legendary Daedric gear, but when I use beast form I get taken out by one arrow. Also, the forced third-person perspective makes it hard to hit enemies when you knock them down.
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Sweets Sweets
 
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Post » Tue May 29, 2012 4:26 am

"Casuals" are being brought into this now?

Wow...

almost seems like a rant from any various shooter forum.
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Neliel Kudoh
 
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Post » Mon May 28, 2012 6:49 pm

I actually enjoyed being a werewolf but I can see what you mean about it needing to be a curse. as for the looks thing though I haven't seen dagerfalls werewolves but skyrims werewolves look pretty much the same as morrowinds just with updated graphics.

I also agree with your point about forced third person, but I look at it like this. Becoming a were-beast is supposed to make the beast blood take control over you. so I like to see it as an out of body experience where i am forced to watch a beast assume control of my body actions who mercilessly slaughters everything he sees. but that's just my way of justifying it in my head. :celebration:
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He got the
 
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Post » Tue May 29, 2012 3:45 am

in oblivion, vampirism was simply too good. u could feed on nayone u wanted and there were enough homeless and sleeping people to feed whenever u wanted. there was simply no downside to stage 1 vampirism. none. it only improved ur stats.

in skyrim, its easy to feed (instruct ur companion to sleep and feed on them). the problem is, its not worth it. there are virtually no statistical upsides to becoming a vampire.

they're both pretty terrible really. at least oblivions system was playable...
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Justin Hankins
 
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Post » Mon May 28, 2012 9:44 pm

My only beef is with the lore. Why do Skyrim vampires look normal when feeding on normal people when the Cyrodilic vampires(The badass of the bunch lore-wise) was the only clan that did it due to a pact by Clavicus Vile?

And that goes for the forced transformations too. Don't get me wrong, I am more than happy we get both ingame, but it's more of a shapeshift than actual Lycanthropy. Even Sinding in the game said werewolves are still under a lunar curse, it seems only the companions can transform at will, since Sinding stole the ring of Hircine to control his transformations, why need a ring when you can transform at will?

"I'm sure you heard of men who shift to beasts under the influence of the moons. I am one of them. A werewolf."-Sinding.

Edit: OP has a point about the casual thing. People go around complaining about sun damage as a vampire and whatnot. Try comparing it to Oblivion and they would of lost their little minds.
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tiffany Royal
 
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Post » Mon May 28, 2012 8:54 pm

There should be a Godwin's Law variation for when people bring "the casuals" into Elder Scrolls discussions.

Ahem. Anyhow.

I took the werewolf option on my "ethically deficient" character, Drusila von Badass. The first forced transformation and waking up somewhere else without clothes was pretty amusing. After that... I found the werewolf battle form no more effective, and actually more fragile, than her human form with arms and armor. Plus no skill-ups, so screw that.

I did use it a couple times in an extremely cheesy fashion to escape a bounty on a couple hairy Dark Brotherhood missions.

*****

VITTORIA VICI: "Oh! I'm so glad you could all be at my wedding, friends and-- OMG A WEREWOLF! ARRRGH!"

GAIUS MARO: "Gods, what a boring assignment. And why the hell am I checking Imperial security in Ulfric's city of Windhelm, anyway? Sigh. OMG! WEREWOLF! ARRRRGH!"

GUARD: "Hey, you notice how whenever someone gets torn to bloody shreds by a werewolf, that chick walks into town an hour later wearing no clothes?"

OTHER GUARD: "I used to be a guy who noticed things, like you. Then I took an arrow in the knee."

*****

I haven't transformed since then. I contemplated getting rid of the lycanthropy, but the passive 100% disease resistance is nice to have, so I don't have to chug a potion every time a skeever gives me crotch rot.

It would indeed be cool to have something a little more unpredictable about the condition. Random attacks by werewolf hunters, if nothing else.
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Lucky Girl
 
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Post » Mon May 28, 2012 3:01 pm

My only issue with lycanthropy was that I couldn't change back when I wanted.


Once I used it to get to Solitude quickly, but I was stuck sitting just outside of the city waiting to change back.
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keri seymour
 
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Post » Mon May 28, 2012 9:18 pm

My only issue with lycanthropy was that I couldn't change back when I wanted.


Once I used it to get to Solitude quickly, but I was stuck sitting just outside of the city waiting to change back.
Just "wait" an hour. ;)
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Penny Flame
 
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Post » Mon May 28, 2012 8:57 pm

And that goes for the forced transformations too. Don't get me wrong, I am more than happy we get both ingame, but it's more of a shapeshift than actual Lycanthropy. Even Sinding in the game said werewolves are still under a lunar curse, it seems only the companions can transform at will, since Sinding stole the ring of Hircine to control his transformations, why need a ring when you can transform at will?
Werewolves could always change at least once a day at will, in addition to the forced transformations (not that a lot of people would willingly change if they didn't like being a werewolf, of course). Hircine's Ring was just used to suppress the forced transformations and bloodlust.

This is, obviously, going off Daggerfall. Since werewolves otherwise only appeared in Bloodmoon, which had forced nightly transformations due to the Great Hunt, the once-a-day power didn't show up and Hircine's Ring was re-purposed to allow unlimited transformations without bloodlust.

Funny thing, though: one of M'aiq's lines in Skyrim was the same as his werewolves line in Oblivion, except with 'bears' substituted for 'wolves'.
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Talitha Kukk
 
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Post » Mon May 28, 2012 10:01 pm

There should be a Godwin's Law variation for when people bring "the casuals" into Elder Scrolls discussions.

Ahem. Anyhow.

I took the werewolf option on my "ethically deficient" character, Drusila von Badass. The first forced transformation and waking up somewhere else without clothes was pretty amusing. After that... I found the werewolf battle form no more effective, and actually more fragile, than her human form with arms and armor. Plus no skill-ups, so screw that.

I did use it a couple times in an extremely cheesy fashion to escape a bounty on a couple hairy Dark Brotherhood missions.

*****

VITTORIA VICI: "Oh! I'm so glad you could all be at my wedding, friends and-- OMG A WEREWOLF! ARRRGH!"

GAIUS MARO: "Gods, what a boring assignment. And why the hell am I checking Imperial security in Ulfric's city of Windhelm, anyway? Sigh. OMG! WEREWOLF! ARRRRGH!"

GUARD: "Hey, you notice how whenever someone gets torn to bloody shreds by a werewolf, that chick walks into town an hour later wearing no clothes?"

OTHER GUARD: "I used to be a guy who noticed things, like you. Then I took an arrow in the knee."

*****

I haven't transformed since then. I contemplated getting rid of the lycanthropy, but the passive 100% disease resistance is nice to have, so I don't have to chug a potion every time a skeever gives me crotch rot.

It would indeed be cool to have something a little more unpredictable about the condition. Random attacks by werewolf hunters, if nothing else.

i LOL'd hard :rofl:
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Emily Jeffs
 
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Post » Mon May 28, 2012 10:06 pm

Dracula could walk around unharmed in the sunlight, though he was weakened by it. It wasn't until the 20th century that vampires were depicted as being destroyed by sunlight. I'm all for vampires that can walk around in daylight, so long as it doesn't make them sparkle. However I do think that vampires should be able to drink the blood of their followers and enemies.
I know that, but you are not Dracula who is practically god among vampires.
Also, concept of a vampire walking on the sun is already taken by The Order vampires.
Still, my biggest problem is that they didn't stick to their awesome lore and decided to go with Oblivion vampires.
Not to mention that I was expecting secret vampire societies hidden in lairs found on bottom of frozen lakes and stuff, but didn't get any of that.
Overall, vampirism in Skyrim had so much potential and they simply didn't use that potential (just like in Oblivion).

It's true about werewolves being useless at higher levels though. I'm at level 39 and I just tear through enemies with my legendary Daedric gear, but when I use beast form I get taken out by one arrow. Also, the forced third-person perspective makes it hard to hit enemies when you knock them down.
Thanks for confirming that.

I actually enjoyed being a werewolf but I can see what you mean about it needing to be a curse. as for the looks thing though I haven't seen dagerfalls werewolves but skyrims werewolves look pretty much the same as morrowinds just with updated graphics.
I wouldn't agree (Morrowind look more wolf-like), but that's not that important right now since they still look pretty good. :)
Still, it would be good if there were more colors of werewolves we could chose like being black, brown, gray or white.

I also agree with your point about forced third person, but I look at it like this. Becoming a were-beast is supposed to make the beast blood take control over you. so I like to see it as an out of body experience where i am forced to watch a beast assume control of my body actions who mercilessly slaughters everything he sees. but that's just my way of justifying it in my head. :celebration:
Well, I don't like forcing solutions on certain problems like this.
In Morrowind, I was that beast and it was me who hunted in those forests, not some spirit inside me.

My only beef is with the lore. Why do Skyrim vampires look normal when feeding on normal people when the Cyrodilic vampires(The badass of the bunch lore-wise) was the only clan that did it due to a pact by Clavicus Vile?
I still wish to find more info about their lore (any link would help a lot).
Also, it's a shame that Bethesda doesn't stick to their lore more.
TES lore is what made me love that game so much and turned it into my #1 VG series of all time.

And that goes for the forced transformations too. Don't get me wrong, I am more than happy we get both ingame, but it's more of a shapeshift than actual Lycanthropy. Even Sinding in the game said werewolves are still under a lunar curse, it seems only the companions can transform at will, since Sinding stole the ring of Hircine to control his transformations, why need a ring when you can transform at will?

"I'm sure you heard of men who shift to beasts under the influence of the moons. I am one of them. A werewolf."-Sinding.
I fine with companions having unforced transformation since they got that power on a special way and it probably different than normal lycanthropy.
But still, I think it would be good to have wild werebeasts (both werewolves and werebears) which can turn you into a werebeast normally.
That would be good to have also since you are now forced to be a companion if you wish to become a werewolf (kinda svcks since I have no interest in them).
Hircine's Ring, in case of wild werebeasts, would allow them to control their bloodlust and transformations.

There should be a Godwin's Law variation for when people bring "the casuals" into Elder Scrolls discussions.

Ahem. Anyhow.

I took the werewolf option on my "ethically deficient" character, Drusila von Badass. The first forced transformation and waking up somewhere else without clothes was pretty amusing. After that... I found the werewolf battle form no more effective, and actually more fragile, than her human form with arms and armor. Plus no skill-ups, so screw that.

I did use it a couple times in an extremely cheesy fashion to escape a bounty on a couple hairy Dark Brotherhood missions.

*****

VITTORIA VICI: "Oh! I'm so glad you could all be at my wedding, friends and-- OMG A WEREWOLF! ARRRGH!"

GAIUS MARO: "Gods, what a boring assignment. And why the hell am I checking Imperial security in Ulfric's city of Windhelm, anyway? Sigh. OMG! WEREWOLF! ARRRRGH!"

GUARD: "Hey, you notice how whenever someone gets torn to bloody shreds by a werewolf, that chick walks into town an hour later wearing no clothes?"

OTHER GUARD: "I used to be a guy who noticed things, like you. Then I took an arrow in the knee."

*****
Made my day! :lol:

I haven't transformed since then. I contemplated getting rid of the lycanthropy, but the passive 100% disease resistance is nice to have, so I don't have to chug a potion every time a skeever gives me crotch rot.

It would indeed be cool to have something a little more unpredictable about the condition. Random attacks by werewolf hunters, if nothing else.
I like this idea a lot!
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Rebecca Clare Smith
 
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Post » Tue May 29, 2012 3:22 am

what i don't like about vampires since oblivion is the fact that they get stronger by not feeding.
i just can't get this, maybe i missed something about "the elder scrolls vampires" but vampires in every other game/book/movie "world" i have seen so far get weaker by not drinking blood.

moreover i can't really see the use of beeing a vampire gameplaywise. the benefits are pretty weak (since there are no more stats and therefore no increase of stats), the only really use is better sneak and illusion(and most illusion spells svck in my opinion), which makes it useless to be a vampire for... lets say a pure warrior. ( cold/fire immunities cancel each other out, disease/poison is 100% useless)
you end up with a char who doesnt regenerate at daytime an is 25% harder to detect while sneaking. wow. impressive.

i turned myself into werewolf, and i have to say its pretty useless too. as others have stated, you get killed so damn fast, especially by arrows. the wikis say you are resistent to normal weapons but get more damage from deadric and silver weapons. well , im lvl 43 and archers are tearing me apart with iron arrows, so i dont see much of it.

in human form i deal more damage, survive longer, can pick up stuff and open the map.
have turned into a werewolf about 6-7 times so far, but not because i needed to, or because i could kill faster, i simply did it because i felt like not using it was some kind of "wasting" the ability
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Kayleigh Mcneil
 
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Post » Tue May 29, 2012 1:56 am

I've always just used it to get to new caves/forts faster. I only used it to fight once...and never again.
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Sherry Speakman
 
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Post » Tue May 29, 2012 12:02 am

Personally I love the way werewolves are implemented in this game. Bethesda chose "fun" over "lore". I guess that makes me a "casual".
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Sarah Bishop
 
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Post » Mon May 28, 2012 2:19 pm

what i don't like about vampires since oblivion is the fact that they get stronger by not feeding.
i just can't get this, maybe i missed something about "the elder scrolls vampires" but vampires in every other game/book/movie "world" i have seen so far get weaker by not drinking blood.
It's suppose to be a thing for The Order vampires (ones from Oblivion).
Still, I get what you are aiming at and I personally believe that they should make vampires weaker if they don't feed.

moreover i can't really see the use of beeing a vampire gameplaywise. the benefits are pretty weak (since there are no more stats and therefore no increase of stats), the only really use is better sneak and illusion(and most illusion spells svck in my opinion), which makes it useless to be a vampire for... lets say a pure warrior. ( cold/fire immunities cancel each other out, disease/poison is 100% useless)
you end up with a char who doesnt regenerate at daytime an is 25% harder to detect while sneaking. wow. impressive.
I agree on this one.
Life Drain is kinda good too, but the problem is that it gets strong and actually useful only when you don't feed... and everyone hates you.

i turned myself into werewolf, and i have to say its pretty useless too. as others have stated, you get killed so damn fast, especially by arrows. the wikis say you are resistent to normal weapons but get more damage from deadric and silver weapons. well , im lvl 43 and archers are tearing me apart with iron arrows, so i dont see much of it.
I'll search and try to find whattheir hidden stats (armor, damage, resistances, etc.).
Am really interested.

in human form i deal more damage, survive longer, can pick up stuff and open the map.
have turned into a werewolf about 6-7 times so far, but not because i needed to, or because i could kill faster, i simply did it because i felt like not using it was some kind of "wasting" the ability
Same here, lol.
Even though I have to admit that the guilt of not using it is going away. >_>

Personally I love the way werewolves are implemented in this game. Bethesda chose "fun" over "lore". I guess that makes me a "casual".
Well, fair enough.

Still, I personally think it's a shame that they don't stick to the lore more since they are probably a game with best lore out there (not to mention that it's my personal favorite).
Honestly, 95% things in the lore are done as if they asked me how it should be done.
Other 5% are just some minor details which are not that big of a deal.

I just hope that Bethesda will fix those two in one of their patches/DLCs.
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Misty lt
 
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Post » Mon May 28, 2012 2:18 pm

I'll say it again, LYCANS. The game labeled them as Werewolves, Lycans can turn into a beast at will, Werewolves can't control it and when it's a full moon you're screwed. As for Vampires, yeah never seen a reason to become one, can't turn into a bat, can't have tons of sixy female vampire followers, or a red and black cape with a giant collar, ah Castlevania...
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Abi Emily
 
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Post » Mon May 28, 2012 7:23 pm

Where did you get your ridiculous vampire ideas from?

Walking through ice? Lakebottom lairs?

Hey I can make up stuff and then get mad that it isn't in the game too!
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IM NOT EASY
 
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Post » Mon May 28, 2012 10:25 pm

I'll say it again, LYCANS. The game labeled them as Werewolves, Lycans can turn into a beast at will, Werewolves can't control it and when it's a full moon you're screwed. As for Vampires, yeah never seen a reason to become one, can't turn into a bat, can't have tons of sixy female vampire followers, or a red and black cape with a giant collar, ah Castlevania...
Term lycans is just a shorter version of lycanthrop used in Underworld and lycanthropes are werewolves.
Also, Skyrim vampires don't look like vampires in your description to my knowledge.

Where did you get your ridiculous vampire ideas from?

Walking through ice? Lakebottom lairs?

Hey I can make up stuff and then get mad that it isn't in the game too!
From the lore?
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Arrogant SId
 
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