Other things I forgot to mention:

Garrison64 reminded me that potions are a lifesaver as well, but not as important as Restoration IMO. They are finite and require one of three things: luck, gold, or Alchemy. Still, the ones you find are helpful for survival, but not critical: Restoration pays for itself when you can sell most of those potions you find (I recommend keeping some).

I'll probably have more to post later, but as I said, I'm tired :/

restoration can be a great addition, esp., if you're like me and don't like carrying around a bunch of potions.

plus, all you need to get is novice, regen and respite and you are good to go for the entire game.

I must be the luckiest person alive then because I've never failed to find an overabundance of health potions in the game. 3 full playthroughs and now a 4th in progress and I've never run short. In fact there comes a point where I start selling them. That is why I've never felt the need to level restoration. I only use the base spell between fights early on to save on potion use.

The higher up in difficulty you go, the more advantageous mages become. On Novice difficulty, a warrior will have no problems shrugging off damage and cutting the enemy down, but on Master difficulty the same warrior will get mowed like a lawn on the way to the enemy.

Dual summon Dremora Lords = Win every fight in the game on Master difficulty. If you prefer a little range, Dual summon Potent Storm Thralls also works. Reanimating Draugr Deathlords is better than Storm atronachs, but not Dremora Lords.

Destruction is an added bonus. If I ever bothered to learn alteration spells, I would have been that much better.

Assassin is cheap only because lighting for stealth purposes seems to be broken in some areas, like dungeons.

The challenge of the assassin isn't that he can output insane damage. The challenge should be getting close enough undetected to do that damage, but currently it isn't challenging enough due to broken lighting mechanics (you can sneak up on mobs right before their nose in brightly lit places).

I disagree with you; I prefer atronachs to Dremora lords. I think (I hope) I clarified why on my first post in this thread (#58).

Either way, I can discuss this further with you tomorrow

I like your approach. I've just finished the MQ for the first time with a Dunmer Thief/Archer, and i'm tossing up the thought of doing Warrior (Heavy Armour + 1h + shield) or Mage (Dest. + Conj.).

I played a Mage before, and i think i spread my Perks too much across all the schools. I did find it boring using Alteration all the time for Mage Armour before i went into battle, that it became a chore rather then a joy. Intereting to see that you havent used it at all, and still do really well.

Mages > Warriors.

Warriors > Ranged.

Ranged > Mage.


That's sort of how the combat triangle works. No, I'm not referencing any MMORPG's, but that's sort of the reality in general.


Warriors can't be better than mages, if mages have the distance advantage. If you're 40ft away from a mage, you have maybe 10 seconds or less to reach that mage before all of your health is sapped.

Same basic principle with ranged, but ranged has more DPS. Hence, it has more of a likely chance of killing a mage, rather than vice versa.

With warriors, they have the armor to absorb ranged damage. Now you might say that they can also absorb magic damage, but unless you are a BRETON, your melee armor is less effective at absorbing magic damage than absorbing ranged damage.


Now.. with all of this being said, you can also affiliate specific perk points into these skill trees. For example, if you pumped all of your perk points into Warrior and nothing else, then of course it completely imbalances the combat triangle.

Speaking from a perspective if you maxed out EVERY combat-based perk tree (Destruction, Alteration, Illusion, One-Handed, Two-Handed, Archery) then you would have a BALANCED combat triangle.

That being said, what I said above is true, if you go by MY perspective. Of course no one would ever consider this unless making a HYBRID character, so there you have it. That is what it comes down to.

Wait, reality in general? Every PnP game I've played pretty much has spellcasters lauging at both ranged and melee attackers.

EDIT: As for magic in Skyrim...Conjuration and Illusion, definitely. Alteration is only worth it for paralyze, since a lack of any real defensive option makes it very, very painful if a lucky shot gets in. Destruction requires potionspam, Impact and cost reduction abuse to ensure you don't run out of magicka after the first two or three casts. Dualcasting destruction is something like 20% more damage for 60% extra cost, which makes it a mana hog.

Beth just doesn't know how to balance their games. If it's not alchemy hijinks, it's infinite stunlock and 3000 per swing.

Using a spellsword I think I understood the best and worst of all worlds

I think the hardest time for a mage are those when the level is above 20 but destruction master spells are not yet unlocked. At times, it can be... frustrating. Yes, magica regeneration is too slow without investing in potions, amulet and enchanted stuff. The stagger perk become essential against damage sponges that rush headlong against the player.

But the biggest problem of mages is having to disperse skills advancements between too many schools. The result is reaching level 30+ (with scaled enemies that means facing marauder, scourges, master conjurers and necromancers...) but with most skills still well below an "expert" level.

Destruction master spells are the worst of the lot, unless you like being a sitting duck for five seconds.

The problem with Magic is that its kill skill, Destruction, is massively inefficient. You end up like the OPer: emptied of magicka on anything bigger than a light dustup. You just don't do enough damage for the amount of magicka expended. Another part of the problem is that magicka regenerates at 33% speed when in combat. How fair is that on a set of skills that is completely reliant on a stat bar to even function? Melee weapons can swing at normal rate with insufficient stamina, with all its over-smithed and super-enchanted power still intact. Destruction? "You don't have enough magicka".

Also, count the ways you can boost weapon damage versus the number of ways you can boost Destruction damage.

Weapons:

• Rote skill increase
  
• 100% boost for all versions of a type over 5 perks
  
• Power attacks
  
• Smithing
  
• Destruction weapon enchanting
  
• Fortify apparel enchanting
  
• Fortify potions
  
• Graduated material tiers (iron, steel, etc)
  
• Sneak attacks
  
• Poisoning

Magic

• Higher tier spells (gradually higher damage... and gradually worse damage/cast cost inefficiency, crowned by the horrendously expensive master spells)
  
• 50% boost for all versions over 6 perks (how unfair is that?)
  
• Dual casting (which further inefficient-izes the spell damage: 2.2x damage for... 2.8x cost)
  
• Fortify potions (Note no mention of fortify enchants?)

So... Ten versus four ways to boost kill skill damage when compared with weapons vs Destruction.

Do you say "Impact" or "coat yourself head to toe in fortify destruction enchants"?

Impact is so OP'd that it just feels cheap. Fortify enchant spam just makes it Boring. You cast over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over until they're dead with piddly little spells until you got the enchanting chops to really cheese it up with 100%.

Allow me to visualize it using Todd's "Boredom vs Frustration" graph from his DICE keynote: http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/1073/boredomfrustration.png

I count myself lucky that I'm on PC where I or others can actually give Destruction some teeth.

you know, i've heard about this lack of health potions, as well. and, i don't get it.

in every game i have played accumulate lots just a few hours into the game and end up storing them in my house to either use or sell when merchant $ is restocked.

I used to have a guy in the 80s who said that American cars were as well built as Japanese cars -- his never broke. It turned out he was constantly fiddling with it, replacing parts, servicing it, seems it was his hobby. Under that care regimen, it WAS a good car. My japanese car never broke either, but I didn't do any of that.

I started out with a battlemage build but found destruction just untenable. For one thing, on a PS3 I have 2 hot keys which means I can't really keep enough spells ready. Then I was always running out of magica even though I was trying to keep upping my magica. Finally I abandoned the attempt and went more warrior. Yes I can believe that if you're clever and dedicated and smart (and you're on a PC) you can make the wizard path work, but that doesn't make it tenable for most players. I did this same thing in Oblivion and was MUCH more successful due to being able to custom design spells which could kill my enemies just as well as my sword did. But here in Skyrim, it wasn't worth the GREAT effort to pull off, at least for me.

Much easier to work slowly upward in crafting, a little at the end of each expedition, slowly getting better armors (with the steed stone to make moving in them easy), gradually upgrading the weapons and being able to handle nearly anything. In my first playthrough, I'd have trouble with the bosses because my points were too much in magica. In the second playthrough, being more a pure warrior, I can take on the bosses on even terms and survive the mage mobs.

I'm not saying everyone should play this way -- play what's fun. But the average player isn't going to go to a massive amount of trouble just to prove it's possible to beat the game as a pure mage.

you can make spells cost zero through normal gameplay methods and without over-exploitation.

Personally I don't bother with Oakflesh. The amount of protection it gives is paltry, and you can only increasing by wasting three valuable perk points that will become obsolete once you get the master level spell (dragonhide). I'd spend those three points elsewhere and just concentrate on not getting hit. My destruction mage is pure offense.

For defense, I dodge and keep my distance. Fast creatures like sabrecats and bears have to be put down very quickly or I die. One strategy for them is sprint/jump for higher ground and then turn and rain destruction down on them from above. The PC can climb slopes that will give trouble to animals and other NPCs.


Until you get some higher level summons this will be a problem. My nigheblade uses conjuration as a distraction while he sneaks in or runs away, but my destruction mage does not use conjuration much.


I took the casting cost reduction perks for my first mage build because I did not want to enchant because it felt "cheap" to get "free casting." A no-enhcant mage may work okay if you are playing a conjuration or illusion mage, but not so well for a destruction mage. You can do it for sure (the Resident Pianist points out how in his post above) but I don't like carrying around 100 pounds of potions and staves. When my first destruction mage hit 70 destruction skill and started picking up the expert level spells, the magicka needed to cast them was insane. I had already perked Adept cost reduction but I could only cast my Adept spells once, maybe twice before I had to switch to lower level spells. That was not terribly fun. So, I changed my attitude about enchant.

So I rolled up a new destruction mage and am perking enchant but not putting any points into spell cost reduction. That will free up perk points for enchant and alchemy. Alchemy is useful for a destruction mage because you can make potions that increase your destruction spell damage.

My plan is to get about 95% cost reduction to Destruction and Restoration and be a Destruction/Restoration mage with a Destruction spell in one hand and a ward in the other. I know, I know, wards are really underpowered in Skyrim, but I think they could be fun if you reduced the casting cost on them enough. Plus, I don't want to use dual casting impact most of the time. On certain opponents (like fast snowy sabercats) I may use dual cast impact stagger, but it is not fun to use it all the time. I don't play on Master (wards are pretty much useless on Master because they are broken, causing stagger by all sorts of opponents).

If all else fails, I can switch to Destruction/Illusion or Destruction/Conjuration just by enchanting some new gear. That is the beauty of using enchant for cost reduction instead of taking those perks. You have a lot more flexibility to change the character around.

You also have to pay attention to what you are fighting and how well each element works, some spells work better against certain opponents. The novice destruction spells will get you through the game until you get your enchant high enough to start using the higher level destruction spells. If you cast your novice spells in bursts, they will do a lot more damage and drain less of your magicka. The flames spell works this way anyway. I don't know if the frost or shock spells stack the damage the way the fire spells do, but with the first level frostbite spell, I can cast it in bursts to cause some serious slowing on opponents. Works even on Dragons and prevents them from breathing on me when they land. That's how I killed Dragons up until I was level 20 and started being able to reduce my casting costs through enchant.

I know but it still feels cheap, so at first I did not do it. However, after playing a no-enchant destruction mage, and realizing that I was hardly ever casting my higher level spells because I needed to conserve my magicka, I gave in and started enchanting.

I still like shock against mages, especially when there is a group of them and I don't have a good place to take cover. When I spray them with sparks, a lot of them pull out their daggers, at which point I have effectively neurtalized them. It is true that shock only does half as much damage to magicka as health, so some people argue that mages will be dead before they run out of magicka. The counterpoint to that is that the mages are also casting spells so you don't need to drain away all their magicka with your shock, only the reserve they have after they have cast a few spells. Take that away and they cannot hurt you or heal themselves (unless they have a potion).

I do agree thought that fire is the best of the tree elements and fire/frost makes a good combination if you are short on perks. I prefer on my destruction mage to use enchant for spell cost reduction so I have enough perks that I do not have to choose between fire, frost and shock.

Also, one other benefit to reducing spell cost through enchant is that in a fight with other mages who are using shock on the you, you can still cast your destruction spells even if you don't have any magicka if you have free casting.

Shock is good for long range against small/quick/airborne foes, because it is Hitscan. You don't need to lead your crosshairs.

Its "magicka burning" effects are pretty much pointless. Notice how you get fireballs out the wazoo against high-level mages? It's because their spell costs are pretty much negligible. The AI mages are cheating.

Some awesome and very useful posts here.

I'm just starting out with my first Pure Mage build which is working out ok so far. I mainly focus on Destruction and Conjuration. Although I am tempted to dabble with Illusion a bit more though, I think I would get some good laughs out of it

I have a Steel Waraxe Soul Trapping thing that I use to quickly grab some souls without using Magicka. Is a useful backup in the early levels anyway, at least until I have levelled up a bit more!

Which mod do you favor?

I've just started a similar character. My aim is to try to not do any direct damage. Concentrate on using Illusion to clear enemies, but also Conjuration to do damage when required. The hard thing will be getting Illusion up to 90 to get Master of the Mind.

Edit: may not be as powerful as a warrior, of course, but will hopefully be fun to play.

I have an Altmer who wears no armor, doesn't use any spells aside from fire destruction.
I've put no points into anything aside from magic.
He is level 45 and the game is on Master.
I haven't had that many big problems with him.
He dies easily yes, but that's what glass cannons do.
In short I don't quite see where the idea that mages aren't viable comes from.

You can move around while preparing to launch spells. Maybe it's because I've a strong FPS background (especially with oldskool shooters like UT99, Quake, etc) so I always try to move and seek cover as an instinct.

Lighting storm (Master destruction spell) is probably the most useful destruction spell in the game with 112 DPS (shock augment perks) and a magica consumption of 46/s (100 destruction, master perk) it's possible to reduce to ashes (litterally!) any enemy in the game. You only have to survive the enemies' blows or dodge them long enough to deplete their HP.

TES is no AD&D so the canonical mage figure of a 'glass cannon' is really out of place. Battlemages wearing armor and dodging the enemies' blows is what TES is really about. Of course one can decide to limit himself to play as a wimpy naked mage for a change (and a challenge) but this won't be the most efficient way of using Skyrim implemented ruleset.