I just finished Arniel's endeavour. I was a bit surprised to see that the warped soul gem apparently worked as a substitute for the heart of Lorkhan, and that Arniel disappeared as the dwemer did. Disappointing that I couldn't talk to Arniel's shade, but the very fact that you can summon him must have some implications.

I'm no expert on the lore of conjuration, but it's my understanding that it involves transporting creatures from the planes of Oblivion and binding them to serve you temporarily. So, Arniel is in Oblivion, then? Does this mean the dwarves are also in Oblivion? Could they theoretically be summoned, like Arniel's shade can be? Or is summoning shades different to summoning daedra?

Maybe the experiment wasn't a success, and something else happened. Perhaps Arniel disappeared, but not in the way the dwemer did - was he killed by wielding Keening, and then svcked into the soul gem?

I'd be interested to know others thoughts on this!

To my understanding, the process involves binding yourself to the nearest divine being. For the Dwemer it was the Numidium. For Arniel, the nearest divine being was the Dovahkiin, so he's bound to him or her. I guess the spell to summon his shade was just put in conjuration because it fits in better with the other spells there.

Dovahkiin is not a divine being. Sure, s/he has a piece of Akatosh inside, but the Dovahkiin by itself is not a divine being

So, Arniel may be bounded to Akatosh, and through Akatosh, the PC has the ability to summon him from Aetherius (or wherever the hell Akatosh is these days)?

Aren't dragons lesser Aedra, being pieces of Akatosh and all? Dovahkiin is essentialy a dragon in a mortal body, so that would make him a divine too, at least to some extent.

Close enough to a divine being.

Think Hercules. Dovahkiin means Dragon Child, or Dragonborn. His/her mortal body contains the power and soul of a dragon, indirectly making him a child of Akatosh.
Or, if you like, we can call him to be similar to Jesus? Born from mortal and human parents, but at the same time said to be the son of a god.
Familiar, no?

Generally speaking: shades are undead and daedra are demons so they they would be from different planes. Now if we start talking about wraiths...

I thought it was more like Azura star, than the disapearance of Dwemer personally. His soul is traqed in Keening I think.

No way, otherwise Dumac the Dwarf King would be trapped in Keening since he used to to get the god power from the Heart of Lorkhan. Plus, you can't hold 2 souls in a soul gem, and Keening isn't a soul gem. (I think)

On topic:
If the shade of Arniel Gane is bound to the PC/Akatosh, does that mean, in thory, that the Dragons could summon Arniel if they wanted to?

You can summon him.

This topic makes my head hurt.

From what I surmised, Arniel just didn't have the knowledge and resources to simulate anything the Dwemer did, and even though he disappeared, I think he is more dead than anything else, which is why he's a shade. Although... Dwemer can also be in Tamriel as shades (Dahk Mezalf and Radac), so.... Argh, make the pain stop.

The explanation on the imperial library website about the Dwemer disappearance says that the Dwemer bound themselves to the skin of Numidium as a way to transfer them to Aetherius because the body used only had to be close to that of a divine being, not exactly the same. Therefore, I think that the Dovahkiin is probably close enough to the body of Akatosh for Arniel to be bound to him/her. It's not really clear whether or not the Dwemer succeeded in transcending to Aetherius, so it's hard to say what will happen to Arniel's soul in the long run.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/final-report-trebonius

But you're still assuming that Arniel was successful in simulating what the Dwemer did. Do you really think that he could with a few short quest hours and a warped soul gem?

Why else would you receive a spell that allows you to summon his shade? Sure, he could have just died and gone to Sovernguard and his shade could be summoned from there.. but that doesn't explain how you receive the spell to conjure his shade.

I have other spells to summon shades like ancestor spirits and Lucien Lechance. Maybe just cos Arniel arranged it beforehand in case he died? Since going to any of the planes of Oblivion is no great feat for mortals - you just have to die. I have personal feelings about the Dwemer that makes me not want their disappearance to ever be explained or easily comprehended, so on a personal level, I don't like the idea of Arniel being able to seemingly easily reproduce such a momentous event. Not to say it didn't happen, just that personally, I don't want to see it easily explained.

What is the status of shades in TES lore? As best as I can remember (I don't have the Monster Manuals anymore. ) in original D&D lore shades are more like tortured souls of people who were evil or not very good in life so they likely wouldn't end up in Sovngarde I don't think. And, yeah, it's not clear how/why we're able to summon his shade. Maybe he was considered evil by the Divines and his punishment is having to serve us when we summon him because we did the world a favor by facilitating his removal?

I would agree with this.
Its only lucky Arniel was a bit incompetent and didnt have the Heart or any of the other tools, or the fool might have bound the entire Breton race to the Dovakhiin.

I think I agree. It doesn't seem right that the heart of Lorkhan could be reproduced by a warped gem heated in a few convectors and attacked with Keening...


Conjuration: Summon entire Breton race

Could make the dungeons a bit crowded.

Well, Numidium was run off of Tiber Septim's mage's soul when Tiber Septim used it to conquer the Empire; not Lorkhan's or Ysmir's (who is sort of an avatar of Lorkhan). Numidium obviously didn't require Lorkhan's heart to function (although it probably would have worked better); why wouldn't the warped soul gem work in the same way for the contraption that Arniel created?

I have absolutely no idea.

The gem doesn't contain a soul though - I think I remember Enthir even saying that it was too warped to contain one. I don't know what the dwemer convectors do to it, however. Maybe it could work, who knows.

That worked because the Mantella took the Heart's place in Hjalti/Wulfharth/Zurin's mythic reenactment though, didn't it? It was the significance that mattered, and no other soul gem, no matter the soul in it, could've worked in it's place I'd think

The events of Daggerfall have shown that the Mantella was indeed crucial.

Arniel's experiment was on a very small scale though.
He only managed to uncreate himself.
Perhaps the soulgem functioned as the Heart only in terms of resonance, a sort of tonal simulacrum.
Not a replacement for the Heart at all, except in one specific function.

My Dovahkiin IS a Breton, so what would happen to her? Would she be bound to herself?

My brain hurts.