No, I've seen perfectly amicable and advlt discussions on Fallout lore get locked for mere discussion of drugs in a clinical and scientific context, without even admitting to personal usage, which is what the written rules prohibit. I've also seen discussions of firearms locked even though there is nothing in the rules that prohibits this. This was the same sort of thing that crushed intelligent discussion in the TES Lore forum for years.

That's pretty much it right there, and frankly I enjoy having this place as a sort of oasis. I don't mind mixing it up on hot button issues from time to time, but sometimes it's nice to be able to go onto a forum and not have every single thread be a constant running flamefest where each of the factions are trying to outdo the others in vitriol and juvenile stereotyping and insults.

I think of that as debate but too many do not know how to debate and can't debate without making personal attacks and that's when it turns into an argument because no one's going to take that stuff off anyone. lol It's just the way humans are.

Drugs and firearms discussion can easily devolve into a political or religious argument because they are controversial topics. According to the rule above, that's grounds to be considered for locking a thread. I've seen many threads on the other hand that discuss the in-game equivalent of both drug use and firearms that haven't been locked because they were relevant to the game. However, trying to justify the use of drugs (in game or not) or the firearms legality/use/etc would likely be locked because it would be crossing the line from discussing the in-game equivalent to real-life.

I don't think they teach formal argument in school these days. It's too bad, because argument can help one understand their own views, challenge them, and modify them if necessary. It seems that many folks think that their views should never change. That's too bad also, since the world changes every day. I was dismayed this last presidential election cycle when a great deal was made about politicians changing their views over time. Of course they change their views. As they gain information, or a better understanding, or if the situation changes otherwise, of course they should change their views.

Argument has become some sort of sport, where folks feel the need to score points and destroy opponents. And no, I'm not perfect. I get caught in the moment sometimes, but I really wish more people would see argument as an exchange of ideas and not some sort of contest.

its funny you left fallout 1, 2 and tactics out of what is permitted to talk about on this general discussion fallout forum.

Well, that is a bit tough to actually practice since here in the USA a parent is allowed to buy a mature rated game for their child if they believe their child is mature enough to handle it. There is no law to prevent a parent from allowing their child to watch a movie rated mature or play a mature rated game. They can't go to the store and buy one for themselves but their parent can buy it for them. Since a company has no way to know what kid under 17 has the game by parental permission it is impossible to limit the forum to just those whose parents have bought it for them. Therefore, the forum is rated 13+ and we then are tasked with keeping the forum appropriate for that group.

As long as you don't use the language in the game (which you can use if you allow the autocensor to do it's work and don't try to bypass it) and discuss the more mature aspects of the game in a mature manner which you would around the dinner table with teens there, it should be no problem.

As for discussions of politics and religion discussion, we allow folks to discuss either as long as it is about "in-game" politics and religion. We don't however allow that discussion to start comparisons to "real life" religions and politics. That part of the rule really has nothing to do with the age of members allowed here. It came about during the 2004 elections when it was noted that not only could the younger ones not do so without becoming riled up and bashing other members opinions and flaming one another for their beliefs but even the more mature and older members became irate and would unleash pages of vile toward one another. Members were being warned and banned because they just could not deal with their own anger. After being examined by admin, it was decided that this is a gaming forum and not a political forum or a religious forum. There was no reason for us to have to be warning and banning folks who while discussing the games were fine but when they started discussing current politics or religious beliefs would lose it.

So, the rule was implimented and we all went back to discussing the games this forum is about in the first place.

There is a good reason for almost every single rule that has been implimented on this forum and most of them are geared toward keeping the place civil so that people will feel free to express their opinions without fear of ridicule. Interestingly, many of our younger users are better at remaining civil with one another than many of our older members. There is never a reason to be disrespectful of others opinions even if we do disagree and there are diplomatic ways of disagreeing with one another.

OT: I can't believe I wrote that much prior to my first cup of coffee this morning. I dread coming back to check for logic and errors and do hope I am not overly embarrassed.



There is a whole section devoted to past Fallout games and those games are discussed there all the time.


We don't allow discussion of real world drug usage here either unless it is science or medical conditions we are discussing. Generally those are locked for things that got deleted that you don't see. Admissions of use pour in and folks get warns and bans and really, it is worth losing members over such things? There is much you don't see. Like yesterday a topic here that had nothing to do with drugs or six or any mature subject matter that almost every moderator had to intervene in and ended up with more deleted posts than the 200 limit it reached to keep it clean. We moderators really don't always have the time to devote to babysitting one or two topics so we close them. But, I can't remember any such thread for ages that was closed for discussion of drug use that was not r/t admissions of doing them or premoting them. Drug discussions fall under "discussing illegal activities". We do allow discussion of in game drug use and addictions.

yes, here in the U.S. it is against the law for a child to be allowed in a theatre without a parent or guardian and watch an R rated film, if law enforcement wishes to enforce said law. they can cite the movie theatre and fine the parents.

same with video games. right now it is against the law to sell a mature rated video game to a minor. stores are also fined for this.

this message board with is 13 plus rating is allowing advlt material to be viewed by a minor. look at your state laws. its a felony.

its sites like this and the gaming industrys apparent flagrant targeting of children with advlt content that is the cause of californias ruckus about trying to censor videogames so it wont get in kids hands through bad parenting and sites like this that allow kids to see what advlts are talking about the cool utra violent games.

thats just my opinion.

Like summer, I wrote that before my morning cup of coffee (well, actually, during my morning coffee...) The same as I said, of course, applies to the other games (I notice you left out Brotherhood of Steel - though that is just as valid to discuss, in the appropriate Fallout Series and Fallout Universe forums.)

Being a newer moderator, I only have so much experience in the history of many of these topic locks that are being brought up - I can't really comment on anything that would have occurred before my time as a moderator, obviously, because I don't have all the pertinent facts.

All I can say is that where I find "the line" to be, in relation to off-limits topics, is - "Is this relevant to the game itself, or is it really just espousing real-world view and debates?" Talking about the drugs used within the Fallout universe and their various effects, as it applies to a videogame, is something I don't think there'd be much of an inherent problem with (though it could, of course, be locked for any number of the more usual reasons.)

The same with religion. A discussion about religion within the context of the videogame (something dealing with the Children of the Atom, for example - or the religious overtones of the Brotherhood of Steel, for example,) I could see leaving open (though we'd be keeping an eye on it.) If it devolved into "my religion vs your religion" it might be locked.

I'd probably even attempt to delete any technically off-topic posts as they came up. But at the same time - if I'm going to be spending too much time editing through 100 posts in a thread, I might just save myself the time and bother, and lock it.

A family forum about a game that has as much advlt content as Fallout. That's just ridiculous. (Not directing that at you, just noting the stupidity)

It's hardly lame, it's actually just wise. Some people are very vociferous about their beliefs, especially regarding topics like drug use. There are often folks on polar opposite ends of the argument and doing things like trying to relate the discussion to real-life often ends up becoming a war between the two parties. I've seen a fair amount of threads that touch on the more controversial topics but they didn't get locked because they were discussed in a way that didn't escalate into a flame-war or change into a discussion of real-life issues. I've seen discussions on taxes (political), Fallout: New Vegas' resemblance of a movie (religious implications), and vices (prostitution and drug abuse) that haven't been locked.

Moderators are just fulfilling their responsibilities by moderating discussion. Actions are usually only take when someone is severely out of line and that hardly fits the description of "wannabe hall monitor". Not to mention that by registering in the forum, you agree to follow the rules, whether you like them or not.

You were involved in some of the best threads I've seen on this forum. Seems to me that you (may) have a better understanding of how posters can get wrapped around the axle and the early warning signs of a thread gone bad.

The thing is though, Fallout's world does not exist in a void; it can be very difficult sometimes to have any meaningful discussion on its themes without comparing to real world parallels. I know we can't always maintain a civil discussion, I myself may have gone over the line a few times, but when we can't discuss thing that we feel are relevant, its a bit restricting. I guess we're just stuck with a system where range of discussion suffers for the overall cohesion of the forums.

I never said folks between 13 and 18 could go to a M rated movie or buy such a game. I said a parent can choose to watch such movie with their child or buy it and allow them to view it at home which is legal. If we go into X-rated, that is another story. And there are no movies posted on this forum that are not appropriate for such ages. I won't say they are never posted but if they are they are quickly removed. We don't allow nvde screenshots, no mature rated videos....nothing. But of course, we now have to back off this discussion as it's going off on politics.

Based on my experience the threads that remain civil stay open (with the exception of topics regarding child-killing or explicit sixual content). A good example would be if there was a topic regarding President Kimball's speech or something like that. A topic like that would probably stay open so long as people didn't hijack it and start talking about an actual world leader and whether or not he/she is a good leader.

If the discussion stays relevant to the topic and is civil, it usually isn't locked.

Its going to be hard to agree on that when its down to personal experience. I'm just saying, I've seen a lot of locked topics over the years for merely toching on a real world topic, even when everyone was being civil. Even when speaking in generalities, not specifics, discussion has been stifled.

::checks the title of the forum::

Okay, what part of Fallout, Fallout 2, and Tactics is Fallout: New Vegas? or Fallout 3?

Which of those games was made by or published by Bethesda? Discussion of those games are off-topic for this forum.

There is a section of the forum intended to discuss the Fallout series. If you look at the forum index, its here: http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/forum/34-fallout-series-discussion/

Fallout Series Discussion

A forum for the discussion of Fallout, Fallout 2, Fallout Tactics, Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel, and future Fallout games.

Although Bethesda did include Fallout:Brotherhood of Steel, which wasn't on your list.

I don't know all the variables and we have different experiences regarding that. I've seen some pretty gray topics discussed openly, but then again the participants didn't attack each other or berate others for their views on the subject. I myself have made references to real-life subjects (*braces self*) to illustrate a point before and didn't receive a warning. In fact the only time I've been warned was in a private message after I made a joke regarding trolls (not recommended).

If it is real world politics or religious discussion, it's locked. I've explained the history on it. There are entire forums devoted to discussions of politics and religion. We just don't allow it for the reasons I sited. We used to allow it and CD was filled with it. But as I said, this is a game forum and it made no sense at all for gamers who come here to discuss the games and who are generally not hot headed and have good control of their anger being banned and warned and suspended over real world politics and religion because that is such a huge hot button with folks.

The decision to disallow real world political and religious discussion came down right from the top. Todd Howard made that announcement btw and was not a moderator or admin decision. :shrug: Not that it matters, but I loved those discussions and could oft be found right smack in the middle of them. I was saddened by the decision but I understood it because I had seen several members who I considered friends get overly emotional about it and be banned. (It was my pre-moderator days}

There is a very good reason why folks generally agree that not discussing religion and politics in a bar or pub is a good idea. Otherwise very level headed people become very emotional when discussing such things. Since this is a game forum and the forum exists so we can discuss games and other forums are out there for discussion of politics and religion...why allow such hot button subjects?

I will add to anything said before by a moderator that it does depend on the time available by the mods. A topic that is verging on restricted subjects will often be "watched" during quiet times and edited as required to allow the topic to stay.
When it is busy (such as now) closing is often the easiest way - we know from experience which topics are going to give problems.

I saw that in a previous post in this thread. I figured that may be the case.

The diligence of the moderators definitely allowed for some good discussions by the way. Most of the closed threads I've seen were blatantly offensive.

Thank you for the clarification.

There was a thread in Community Discussion "How would you react to your child telling you he/she is gay?" At the time, the word "gay" was in the autocensor because of how the less-than-mature posters were using it, describing everything from something they didn't like or thought was foolish [oh that is so gay] to insulting other members who didn't agree with them [you are so gay]. Even though people were bypassing the censor, the serious discussion was allowed to go on to the 200 post lock since the majority of the posts were civil, were actually contributing to the discussion, and were okay with admitting that others could possibly have a different opinion than theirs. There were a few problem posters that ended up gone though. Stating you would kill your kid if they said they were gay is not contributing to the discussion. The skinhead neo-nazi reactions were also not good in a "discussion" sort of way. At the same time, we were locking threads in Morrowind after one or two posts, because when the thread started with posts that described in detail how the poster killed Fargoth because "he hit on their character" the thread *never* went well. "I think that you and I are about to become very close." is the "idle" comment from some npcs; the bosmer aren't set to pick up the "player character is male/female" variable, so they use it for every player character. Ironically enough, I can't remember any player complaining that Galbedir uses the same line to their female character.

As for the birthday check; you answered your own question. "Why can't they stick a useless birthday check on the forum game page?" It is useless, for the most part. I know of one poster who really is in his mid to later 80s here. However if you check on the list of birthdays, sometimes there are people over 100 years old. In other words, people lie. There is no way to verify it for the most part. People acting stupid when stating their age have had that bite them later, though. It takes time to straighten out misunderstandings with the admins, and that is time the person wouldn't be posting on the forums.

I don't think I've ever seen so many moderators actually commenting on a topic...

Thanks to all the contributors...it's a good read....

This has to be your sock puppet account.

brotherhood of steel is tactics.

And all of the fallouts are identical in substance. So I still don't see what the big deal is to talk about canon. Just because two games let you kill smaller sprites than the larger ones.

And what about this game? PETA had a fit yet about killing baby animals?

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout_Tactics

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout:_Brotherhood_of_Steel

Nope, they're two different games. Both of which are not considered canon.

Edit: Gunslinger's a Necromancer! Where's the Mage's Guild?